Krieghoff Luger - Page 2

alvin · 11-24-2009, 09:41 PM

Is there any commercial Luger without stock lug imported into the U.S. after 1934? If there is, I won't be surprised. But I don't know.....

====

Just saw cirelaw's picture!

Did the book say "rework"? or no stock lug out of factory? or removed by the importer?

RichSr · 11-24-2009, 10:24 PM

Eric
I'm not seeing what your copied page has to do with the subject Luger. With the P serial number, side logo, and usual marked toggle it could not be any type of rework from another manufacturer (DWM) as your post shows. I'm no expert by any stretch but am I missing something?

Lugerdoc · 11-25-2009, 10:22 AM

Generally the side marked HK lugers have a DWM toggle assy and were of produced during the Weimar era. The horizontal C/N proofing is typical of reworks during this period. What would be strange, would to find one with a matching HK made toggle assy. I original to the rework, it too should have the C/N markings on the breech block and mid toggle link. TH

cirelaw · 11-25-2009, 11:58 AM

Rich, I'm copying directly from the blue 'THE KRIEGHOFF'book Send Me an mail, Ill send a picture. page 272. I sent this picture as these frame had no stock lig

cirelaw · 11-27-2009, 04:09 PM

Tom and Rich, you both know your lugers and especially this most exciting brand of Luger. I will however ask what I beleive another authority. The One whose opinion shall be sought after the holiday He himself owns more Kreighoffs than anyone I know and owns one simular to the one in question. RS Its apparent the the only Kreighoff missing a stock luger were just those borrowed frames that never had a stock lug to begin with. What idiot would ruin a beautiful frame and saw of a stock lug and for what reason. What would be the purpose of sawing off, bastardizing a real beauty when frames with no stock lugs were more readily available. I'll share what I find out. What amazes Me it that more isn't written for such a Beautiful Luger!

jay Christensen · 11-27-2009, 07:53 PM

Here are some more photos. BTW, my wife wants me to sell. Since it was my Dad's I have an emotional attachment to the Iuger, but l'd sell if the offer is good enough.

cirelaw · 11-27-2009, 08:09 PM

Amazing, it sure looks like it was removed. This was a common practice although I don't know why. Lets see what vthe concencus it. Its still a very desirable Luger. I'll talk to Ralph on Monday. Ill be very interested to see what Rich and Tom have to say.

alvin · 11-27-2009, 09:33 PM

"I washed my hands before lunch"

When the lug was chopped off, there would be no easy way to turn it into a NFA weapon (Short Barrel Rifle) as defined by 1934 GCA. So Uncle Sam could not confiscate this legal gun. That could be one reason. Although law did not require chopping it off, I heard many guns were reworked this way in the past.

cirelaw · 11-27-2009, 10:39 PM

Were the Navies, carbines and artillerys the only exceptions. I just don't see the logic, if they were so outlawed why did the keep making a frame with a stud?

Norme · 11-27-2009, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Were the Navies, carbines and artillerys the only exceptions. I just don't see the logic, if they were so outlawed why did the keep making a frame with a stud?

This is a controversial issue. One theory is that the stock lug was found to be a convenient place to hold the frame during assembly.
Regards

alvin · 11-28-2009, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

if they were so outlawed why did the keep making a frame with a stud?

When German making guns for their armed forces, I don't think they put U.S. laws and regulations into their design or manufacturing consideration. Everything would be based on their needs and convenience.

If a gun was made for U.S. commercial market, then it's a different story. See dbuster posted Stoeger Luger in Commercial Luger column, that one does not have stock lug out of factory. Postwar Interarms Luger do not have stock lug either. Another example is Mitchell Luger, a domestic product, it has a bulge at butt but that's not stock lug.

Dropping Artillery, Navy etc from NFA list is also relatively new. When did ATF create C&R FFL? 1984?

Vlim · 11-28-2009, 10:07 AM

I examined the frame of a P08 that was found in the Württenberg area last year.

The frame was a common P08 frame, part of a dig find, with a removed stock lug. This seems to indicate that removal of stock lugs was also done for whatever reason in Germany itself.

Personally, I think that some pistols were 'modified' this way under French, British or US allied control in the occupied areas of Germany in the last year of the war. I certainly don't believe that this cutting practice was only done in the USA.

Or someone should explain to me how a German P08 was taken to the US in the 1930s, had it's stock lug ground off, then sent back to Germany and ditched in the Württenberg area only to be retreived some 50 years later.

Of course, anything is possible and proof is lacking, but still.

Norme · 11-28-2009, 10:24 AM

I think it more likely that Jay's father, fearing, erroneously, that he risked confiscation if he tried to bring a lugged Luger back to the States, had the lug removed before returning home. Norm

Vlim · 11-28-2009, 10:38 AM

Oh, I don't doubt that this particular modification was done in the USA.
I'm merely stating that there is some proof that stock lug removal was also done in Germany.

cirelaw · 11-28-2009, 11:00 AM

You both have to be right. its the only logical conclusion~~

Lugerdoc · 11-28-2009, 11:35 AM

The lug has been removed from the HK rework shown. I understand that some US STATES (incl NY) had lawa in the 1930s against "stockable" pistols (short rifles). I've owned (for parts) a couple of LPO8s with ground off stock lugs. TH

cirelaw · 11-28-2009, 01:24 PM

I suggested the Ted might do great with this Luger. The removal scar is the first thing so noticable mearly reblue it, or reblue the whole gun. Ted does outstanding work. He will need a correct holster.

jay Christensen · 11-28-2009, 01:36 PM

There is also a very faint stamping of a crown with an N below it on the left front part of the toggle. It is very hard to see and I don't think it would show up in a photo.

cirelaw · 11-28-2009, 01:53 PM

Accordng to Kenyan, it is a German commercial proof,"Found on some commercial Lugers of the1906-1914 era. 'A few Lugers manufactured by Krieghoff have a simular, but smaller proof'

Tom R · 11-28-2009, 02:15 PM

Please educate a novice luger guy. What makes the Krieghoffs any better than say a mauser or hk?

11-24-2009, 10:24 PM	#22
RichSr User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 128 Thanks: 153 Thanked 54 Times in 36 Posts	Eric I'm not seeing what your copied page has to do with the subject Luger. With the P serial number, side logo, and usual marked toggle it could not be any type of rework from another manufacturer (DWM) as your post shows. I'm no expert by any stretch but am I missing something? __________________ Rich

11-25-2009, 10:22 AM	#23
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Generally the side marked HK lugers have a DWM toggle assy and were of produced during the Weimar era. The horizontal C/N proofing is typical of reworks during this period. What would be strange, would to find one with a matching HK made toggle assy. I original to the rework, it too should have the C/N markings on the breech block and mid toggle link. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

11-25-2009, 11:58 AM	#24
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Rich, I'm copying directly from the blue 'THE KRIEGHOFF'book Send Me an mail, Ill send a picture. page 272. I sent this picture as these frame had no stock lig Attached Thumbnails

11-27-2009, 04:09 PM	#25
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Tom and Rich, you both know your lugers and especially this most exciting brand of Luger. I will however ask what I beleive another authority. The One whose opinion shall be sought after the holiday He himself owns more Kreighoffs than anyone I know and owns one simular to the one in question. RS Its apparent the the only Kreighoff missing a stock luger were just those borrowed frames that never had a stock lug to begin with. What idiot would ruin a beautiful frame and saw of a stock lug and for what reason. What would be the purpose of sawing off, bastardizing a real beauty when frames with no stock lugs were more readily available. I'll share what I find out. What amazes Me it that more isn't written for such a Beautiful Luger! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by cirelaw; 11-27-2009 at 07:02 PM.

11-27-2009, 07:53 PM	#26
jay Christensen User Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some more photos. BTW, my wife wants me to sell. Since it was my Dad's I have an emotional attachment to the Iuger, but l'd sell if the offer is good enough. Attached Thumbnails

11-24-2009, 09:41 PM	#21
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Is there any commercial Luger without stock lug imported into the U.S. after 1934? If there is, I won't be surprised. But I don't know..... ==== Just saw cirelaw's picture! Did the book say "rework"? or no stock lug out of factory? or removed by the importer?

11-27-2009, 08:09 PM	#27
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Amazing, it sure looks like it was removed. This was a common practice although I don't know why. Lets see what vthe concencus it. Its still a very desirable Luger. I'll talk to Ralph on Monday. Ill be very interested to see what Rich and Tom have to say.

11-27-2009, 09:33 PM	#28
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	"I washed my hands before lunch" When the lug was chopped off, there would be no easy way to turn it into a NFA weapon (Short Barrel Rifle) as defined by 1934 GCA. So Uncle Sam could not confiscate this legal gun. That could be one reason. Although law did not require chopping it off, I heard many guns were reworked this way in the past.

11-27-2009, 10:39 PM	#29
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Were the Navies, carbines and artillerys the only exceptions. I just don't see the logic, if they were so outlawed why did the keep making a frame with a stud?

11-28-2009, 10:07 AM	#32
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	I examined the frame of a P08 that was found in the Württenberg area last year. The frame was a common P08 frame, part of a dig find, with a removed stock lug. This seems to indicate that removal of stock lugs was also done for whatever reason in Germany itself. Personally, I think that some pistols were 'modified' this way under French, British or US allied control in the occupied areas of Germany in the last year of the war. I certainly don't believe that this cutting practice was only done in the USA. Or someone should explain to me how a German P08 was taken to the US in the 1930s, had it's stock lug ground off, then sent back to Germany and ditched in the Württenberg area only to be retreived some 50 years later. Of course, anything is possible and proof is lacking, but still.

11-28-2009, 10:24 AM	#33
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	I think it more likely that Jay's father, fearing, erroneously, that he risked confiscation if he tried to bring a lugged Luger back to the States, had the lug removed before returning home. Norm

11-28-2009, 10:38 AM	#34
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Oh, I don't doubt that this particular modification was done in the USA. I'm merely stating that there is some proof that stock lug removal was also done in Germany.

11-28-2009, 11:00 AM	#35
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	You both have to be right. its the only logical conclusion~~

11-28-2009, 11:35 AM	#36
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The lug has been removed from the HK rework shown. I understand that some US STATES (incl NY) had lawa in the 1930s against "stockable" pistols (short rifles). I've owned (for parts) a couple of LPO8s with ground off stock lugs. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

11-28-2009, 01:24 PM	#37
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I suggested the Ted might do great with this Luger. The removal scar is the first thing so noticable mearly reblue it, or reblue the whole gun. Ted does outstanding work. He will need a correct holster. Attached Thumbnails

11-28-2009, 01:36 PM	#38
jay Christensen User Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Krieghoff Luger There is also a very faint stamping of a crown with an N below it on the left front part of the toggle. It is very hard to see and I don't think it would show up in a photo.

11-28-2009, 01:53 PM	#39
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Accordng to Kenyan, it is a German commercial proof,"Found on some commercial Lugers of the1906-1914 era. 'A few Lugers manufactured by Krieghoff have a simular, but smaller proof'

11-28-2009, 02:15 PM	#40
Tom R User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Coventry, Rhode Island Posts: 7 Thanks: 11 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Please educate a novice luger guy. What makes the Krieghoffs any better than say a mauser or hk? Last edited by Tom R; 12-01-2009 at 01:11 AM.