Small piece of paper in grip/mag well - Page 2

dalep38 · 01-27-2011, 08:22 PM

Guys: Just recently a unique piece of old crumbled paper was found in the mag pouch of a P.38 holster dated the day of the plot to assasinate Hitler. Most likely authentic because it was acquired and hidden without knowledge for many years in the mag pouch. It was interpreted and was found to be a Wehrmacht issued inventory type control slip for the gun. I think the speculation of a written number 9 being the validation of not being authentic of the stamp like fiber or paper found under the grip is at best speculation and taken at face value as nonsense a kin to fantasy CSI. I will always tend give the benefit of the doubt when things like this turn up until there is REAL PROOF to the contrary. I don't mean to be so hard on Andy and maybe don't understand his sense of humor if he's joking with his comments so sorry in advance if you weren't serious with your comments and maybe were just joking around..Thank You, Dale

George Anderson · 01-27-2011, 09:44 PM

If one looks at the stitching holes along the upper, lower and left edge of this tag it should be quite apparent that it was torn from a garment.

tomaustin · 01-27-2011, 11:03 PM

science department or sheriff/police office and make friends with the local forensics expert...they love a good mystery...date the ink and material...i hope it is 70+ years old...then the debate will really begin.....

rolandtg · 01-28-2011, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

If one looks at the stitching holes along the upper, lower and left edge of this tag it should be quite apparent that it was torn from a garment.

Not that I know anything special about this at all but imho, it looks to like it was perforated by hand and torn from a larger sheet of paper.
Perhaps by a depot repair? technician.
Just my personal guess.

Obviously since none of the experts here have ever see one it couldn't have been a common practice.
Like so many fascinating aspects of this hobby we may never know unless or until another one is found, if ever.

It's ya'lls detective work that keeps me coming back here, there's some new mystery almost every day!

suum cuique · 01-28-2011, 02:28 AM

Sure, people are changing their handwriting "style" during their life. Everybody does. They changed in Germany several times the handwriting style in school. "Altdeutsch", "Kurrentschrift", "Suetterlin" and in 1941 they changed by law * to "Lateinische Schrift", latin letters. (Printed letters = Normalschrift).http://www.lgl-bw.de/lgl-internet/we...he_Schrift.pdf
So every style is possible. In the 19th century they wrote the 9 like shown on the tag, but later they changed it.
I guess if we could identify the letters underneath the wings, this would give us a much better clue.
Has nobody seen an eagle like this before?

*
http://home.arcor.de/lutz.schweizer/schrifterlass.html

Armin · 01-28-2011, 05:51 AM

The explanation for this issue could be very simple. Due to shrinking the grip panels of a Luger sometimes become loose. This is not a real pleasure for the hands. Very often a small sheet of paper or textile between the grip and the grip panel will fix the problem. Perhaps the former owner of this Luger solved this problem with any little textile fragment that was at hand. Perhaps the label of a jacket or a panty or .....
Regards , Armin.

John Sabato · 01-28-2011, 09:19 AM

I think Armin's speculation makes as much sense as any that has been offered...

The fact that the number on the fragment is the same a sthe last two digits of the gun's serial number simply may be a coincidence.

The mystery continues...

Hugo Borchardt · 01-28-2011, 11:54 AM

The item is in surprisingly good condition. I would expect more imprint, rust stains, or discoloration where it made contact with the grips and frame.

I did a little research on google images hoping to find the exact same eagle to give it some context but failed to find one. There are a ton of variations.

I'd like to see a photo of the back of the tag even if it is blank, maybe taken with a coin, or back on the gun in the position it was found to get an idea of its size. Might give a couple more clues, but I agree this one may not be solved for sure.

The wet ink stain on the signature shows it was hand signed. The eagle is not crisp and uniform, and is not centered on the tag and may be a hand stamp and not a print. A hand stamp would likely have circle around it though.

I'm leaning away from a garment tag though I'm not discounting it. I just can't believe the "59" is a coincidence.

Hugo Borchardt · 01-28-2011, 01:43 PM

Couple example SS garment / issue tags. Have to admit they look similar style.

Scarygary · 01-28-2011, 02:23 PM

Maybe this is just me, but if you were to pull the grips off of any of my handguns you would find oil there . I'd think that this would cause the ink to run and what ever the tag is made of to be stained. I have very corrosive finger prints and I live in Oregon where it rains 8 months out of the year so I'm always wiping my gun's down with an oily rag.
I do love trying to reverse engineer how things became as they are.
I love it.

John Sabato · 01-28-2011, 04:14 PM

Gary, It is believed that this gun sat on the grandfather's closet shelf for 60+ years without maintenance. That could explain the lack of lubrication.

AndrewC · 01-28-2011, 04:55 PM

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here, my job requires that I try to decipher handwritten prescriptions.....I see many different writing styles, and my guess would be that the # 59 was written by a lefthanded person more than a period specific style...just a guess.. Andy

suum cuique · 01-28-2011, 04:56 PM

Damn, no "59" tag found underneath those grips...

suum cuique · 01-28-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Rickman

Couple example SS garment / issue tags. Have to admit they look similar style.

Very nice rzm tags

suum cuique · 01-28-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armin

The explanation for this issue could be very simple. Due to shrinking the grip panels of a Luger sometimes become loose. This is not a real pleasure for the hands. Very often a small sheet of paper or textile between the grip and the grip panel will fix the problem. Perhaps the former owner of this Luger solved this problem with any little textile fragment that was at hand. Perhaps the label of a jacket or a panty or .....
Regards , Armin.

Armin, what do you think about the handwiting of the number 9?

Armin · 01-29-2011, 01:58 PM

Andy,
my contribution to this issue is pure speculation. Besides fixing a grip panel I do not see any other reason to place cloth or paper between grip and panel.
The 9 on the label looks a bit strange to me. I still remember my mother who went to school during the 3rd Reich period. The 9 that she wrote looked different. It was more like a 'g' . And I am convinced that in this time scholar drill dit not tolerate different variations of letter writing.
But as said before, it is speculation.
Regards , Armin.

MFC · 01-30-2011, 01:15 AM

The age of the person who wrote the 9 would need to be known to help determine when he learned how to write numbers.

Ron Wood · 01-30-2011, 02:29 AM

After reading all of this I think I will go with Armin's panty lable theory.

steven c · 01-30-2011, 05:13 PM

Staying on topic about the 9s, I will add a few pics of various personalized dress bayos that were owner-done. You'll see them often, but not really collected. They are difficult to prove as to authenticity. I find them interesting but about all you can do is study fonts and styles. When it comes to some of the wording, I lack knowledge of the German grammar styles.

Just thought I'd add that the 9s do look a bit similar. Hope you enjoy the pics. By no means does this validate or nullify the previous tag found -- and may I add that I love a good mystery, and that one is very interesting indeed.

Andy: I'll send you a link in a few days. I found a bayo like two of mine that'll match your collar tab. I'll get back with you later.

Steve

Joe Burkel · 03-13-2012, 07:03 PM

I'm new to the forum, just putting my two cents in...Could that piece of paper have been placed between the grip and frame to snug up a loose grip?

01-27-2011, 08:22 PM	#21
dalep38 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southeast USA Posts: 60 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Guys: Just recently a unique piece of old crumbled paper was found in the mag pouch of a P.38 holster dated the day of the plot to assasinate Hitler. Most likely authentic because it was acquired and hidden without knowledge for many years in the mag pouch. It was interpreted and was found to be a Wehrmacht issued inventory type control slip for the gun. I think the speculation of a written number 9 being the validation of not being authentic of the stamp like fiber or paper found under the grip is at best speculation and taken at face value as nonsense a kin to fantasy CSI. I will always tend give the benefit of the doubt when things like this turn up until there is REAL PROOF to the contrary. I don't mean to be so hard on Andy and maybe don't understand his sense of humor if he's joking with his comments so sorry in advance if you weren't serious with your comments and maybe were just joking around..Thank You, Dale __________________ Always looking for early P.38's Original finish collector grade ,Zeros,480,ac only,40 added,ac40,ac41's and mags

01-27-2011, 11:03 PM	#23
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	preserve and protect that item...then go to your local university science department or sheriff/police office and make friends with the local forensics expert...they love a good mystery...date the ink and material...i hope it is 70+ years old...then the debate will really begin.....

01-28-2011, 02:28 AM	#25
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Sure, people are changing their handwriting "style" during their life. Everybody does. They changed in Germany several times the handwriting style in school. "Altdeutsch", "Kurrentschrift", "Suetterlin" and in 1941 they changed by law * to "Lateinische Schrift", latin letters. (Printed letters = Normalschrift).http://www.lgl-bw.de/lgl-internet/we...he_Schrift.pdf So every style is possible. In the 19th century they wrote the 9 like shown on the tag, but later they changed it. I guess if we could identify the letters underneath the wings, this would give us a much better clue. Has nobody seen an eagle like this before? * http://home.arcor.de/lutz.schweizer/schrifterlass.html __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

01-28-2011, 09:19 AM	#27
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I think Armin's speculation makes as much sense as any that has been offered... The fact that the number on the fragment is the same a sthe last two digits of the gun's serial number simply may be a coincidence. The mystery continues... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-28-2011, 11:54 AM	#28
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 340 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	The item is in surprisingly good condition. I would expect more imprint, rust stains, or discoloration where it made contact with the grips and frame. I did a little research on google images hoping to find the exact same eagle to give it some context but failed to find one. There are a ton of variations. I'd like to see a photo of the back of the tag even if it is blank, maybe taken with a coin, or back on the gun in the position it was found to get an idea of its size. Might give a couple more clues, but I agree this one may not be solved for sure. The wet ink stain on the signature shows it was hand signed. The eagle is not crisp and uniform, and is not centered on the tag and may be a hand stamp and not a print. A hand stamp would likely have circle around it though. I'm leaning away from a garment tag though I'm not discounting it. I just can't believe the "59" is a coincidence. Attached Images __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm Last edited by Hugo Borchardt; 01-28-2011 at 12:51 PM.

01-27-2011, 09:44 PM	#22
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	If one looks at the stitching holes along the upper, lower and left edge of this tag it should be quite apparent that it was torn from a garment.

01-28-2011, 05:51 AM	#26
Armin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	The explanation for this issue could be very simple. Due to shrinking the grip panels of a Luger sometimes become loose. This is not a real pleasure for the hands. Very often a small sheet of paper or textile between the grip and the grip panel will fix the problem. Perhaps the former owner of this Luger solved this problem with any little textile fragment that was at hand. Perhaps the label of a jacket or a panty or ..... Regards , Armin.

01-28-2011, 01:43 PM	#29
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 340 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	Couple example SS garment / issue tags. Have to admit they look similar style. Attached Thumbnails __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm Last edited by Hugo Borchardt; 01-28-2011 at 04:18 PM.

01-28-2011, 02:23 PM	#30
Scarygary User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Aloha Oregon Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 2 Posts	Maybe this is just me, but if you were to pull the grips off of any of my handguns you would find oil there . I'd think that this would cause the ink to run and what ever the tag is made of to be stained. I have very corrosive finger prints and I live in Oregon where it rains 8 months out of the year so I'm always wiping my gun's down with an oily rag. I do love trying to reverse engineer how things became as they are. I love it.

01-28-2011, 04:14 PM	#31
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Gary, It is believed that this gun sat on the grandfather's closet shelf for 60+ years without maintenance. That could explain the lack of lubrication. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-28-2011, 04:55 PM	#32
AndrewC User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 35 Thanks: 37 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here, my job requires that I try to decipher handwritten prescriptions.....I see many different writing styles, and my guess would be that the # 59 was written by a lefthanded person more than a period specific style...just a guess.. Andy

01-28-2011, 04:56 PM	#33
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Damn, no "59" tag found underneath those grips... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

01-29-2011, 01:58 PM	#36
Armin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Andy, my contribution to this issue is pure speculation. Besides fixing a grip panel I do not see any other reason to place cloth or paper between grip and panel. The 9 on the label looks a bit strange to me. I still remember my mother who went to school during the 3rd Reich period. The 9 that she wrote looked different. It was more like a 'g' . And I am convinced that in this time scholar drill dit not tolerate different variations of letter writing. But as said before, it is speculation. Regards , Armin.

01-30-2011, 01:15 AM	#37
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	The age of the person who wrote the 9 would need to be known to help determine when he learned how to write numbers. __________________ Mike C.

01-30-2011, 02:29 AM	#38
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	After reading all of this I think I will go with Armin's panty lable theory. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-30-2011, 05:13 PM	#39
steven c User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: texas Posts: 60 Thanks: 15 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Staying on topic about the 9s, I will add a few pics of various personalized dress bayos that were owner-done. You'll see them often, but not really collected. They are difficult to prove as to authenticity. I find them interesting but about all you can do is study fonts and styles. When it comes to some of the wording, I lack knowledge of the German grammar styles. Just thought I'd add that the 9s do look a bit similar. Hope you enjoy the pics. By no means does this validate or nullify the previous tag found -- and may I add that I love a good mystery, and that one is very interesting indeed. Andy: I'll send you a link in a few days. I found a bayo like two of mine that'll match your collar tab. I'll get back with you later. Steve Attached Thumbnails

03-13-2012, 07:03 PM	#40
Joe Burkel New User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Mountains of NC Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm new to the forum, just putting my two cents in...Could that piece of paper have been placed between the grip and frame to snug up a loose grip?