pricing help desired

[mystical_tutor]

Jerry,
Well, I am never comfortable with grading bluing or straw.

I have tried to check out the BBoGV to see if it has what I want and is reliable yet without paying the subscription cost until I am sure it is not just a gross generalization.
I appreciate your recomendation as I am not enough in the know to evaluate any pricing guide (which is why I asked my original question).
I think I'll spring for the online version. It may be more up to date than the book. There are two bad reviews on Amazon reference up to date pricing in the book.
Because I have a wide spectrum of Lugers this should be make things much easier.

In addition I like comments from real people. Often make me think and open new thoughts to me.

Gary

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Hi Gary,

The first thing you have to understand about this forum is that some folks have a way with words at times. Every forum has its pluses and minuses. Takes time to know people I reckon; some you never do.

You are most fortunate to own two Navy like; or originals. I have no idea which, but both are certainly more valuable than the run of the mill, run over by a tank four times, Luger. How much, I do not know or really care just talking plain. Navy pistols are faked everyday, originals; if they can be truly evaluated; are getting more rare. Provance is from historical paperwork, not from I saw three of these here in the states, and they are all the same.

If I was really thinking of selling said pieces, Simpson does offer a service for evaluation. Costs money of course, they do not run a museum. By now I am sure you have a lot of private emails inquiring on said pieces. You sound a bit more knowledgeable than the postings let on. I would counsel to sell only when you are comfortable and can live with the number. Once sold, you kinda have to move on sorta speak, because like the stock market things can change in the environment; once you have played, you have played.

I share the thoughts on security on forums/internet services; we do all we can, but it is a battle. No use in making it easier though either. You have to live with those types of decisions.

Gunshow folks are resellers, just like many collectors here and on other forums. They buy as low as they can, and sell high as they can.........tis called capitalism I reckon. There are a few that are in the collection way, because of the history/gleam of the pistols, but those folks are getting older, sorta the great generation we hear about in other venues. Knowledge is a key as you well know, either your own schooling/experiences or from a trusted knowledgeable source. The environment can kinda be like the 22lr guys that buy from the big box outfits, and then go to the gunshows to resell.

I got out of the collection type arena years ago, but still have an interest in the Luger pistol. Rare pistols like yours (maybe, if original) have some value that sometimes is hard to place, remembering the times that we are in now.

If you want just a general idea of current values, and I use that term fairly loosely, I would just hit the various large storefront Luger sites, and compare to the pistols in hand. If you are looking for a relative, today's type value; it will take some footwork and usually a fee. We all enjoy keeping our shirts you know........

I for one enjoyed the pictures of said pieces, not every day we see the two position rear sight anymore.

Rick; You got the right of it. One thing I did not know that you and others have mentioned a couple times and made my ears perk up. That is the faking of these pieces. These that I have have not even seen the light of day for 13 years, Put them in a bank safety deposit box when I got back from Korea and got them moved to my new home. Always, "well one of these days I'm gonna get them ready to display at a gun show" (won a prize in Waco Texas for my Luger display in the '80s). It just hasn't happened. Now, things have changed and I gotta get them out--but I'll tell you man, every time I fondle one of them it is that much harder to even think about selling them. Much better to just pass on and let some executor worry about them. Had my first Luger in '57 and fell in love with them (sold it in '59 for Christmas money--got $30 for it).
Enough of that trash.
Thanks for your comments and advice.
Say, got any advice on a box full of pieces? Whole bunch of little stuff, Thinking about itemizing it and putting it up on ebay to see what nits on it but there is some of it I'n not even sure what it is. Some is Swiss and some I think remfg (Simpson?)
Also have a mixed parts K date (top all same, bottom mixed), G date is matching I think. Swiss is matching, Cav test is matching (except it has Ideal grips). Got a Navy stock but I guess they are easy to fake. Got this one from one Ralph Shattuck back in the '60s but it looks like the tang has been messed with. Bunch of other crap too..
Sorry for the long winded. procrastinating not making tags for everything and swabbing bores before the weekend gets here.

Gary

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gary..I have searched the World for Navy stocks..I would love to see yours!
Jerry

Here's a couple of mine!

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...275#post240275

[Edward Tinker]

Well, and I am prejudiced, but I would send the krieghoff to Tom Whiteman for appraisal and sale. I trust him to be fair, but I also worked with him at legacy collectables.

Ed
SSG USA RET

[Ben M.]

u might find a same-ish pistol on this dealer site. http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?...31b6215ad1e5a6

[mystical_tutor]

Jerry,

Bought a subscription to the BBoGV but having trouble finding my Lugers. Not sure if it is an inability to use their search engine or a lock of data in their db. Can't find my Thailand Art or my Mauser Bulgarian Commemerative. If you have it are those in it and I'm just not searching well enough?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gary, They are in the book..I am a computer Luddite. I like books. Maybe someone else here can say?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...275#post240275

[mrerick]

Hi Gary,

Well, this is becoming an interesting discussion, isn't it?

All of us that are responding to you are interested in being helpful. Clearly, I don't know you, yet I believe members here are sincere and accurate in the responses you've gotten.

As you've learned, the extremely rare variations of Lugers you have mentioned (Now including Navy Lugers; a Krieghoff; A Bulgarian Mauser and Thai art - not sure if that is a Luger or some other artwork) are priced at a premium above the run of the mill military Lugers most of us are lucky enough to own.

You've also learned about the widespread faking of rare premium priced Lugers. Part of faking them involves establishing a level of authenticity that will satisfy a buyer.

Also, from reading an earlier post, I understand you have a fairly good number of spare parts including those for Simson Lugers and others. As you now, Simson Lugers are even more rare than Krieghoffs.

The simple fact is that determining the authenticity of a rare Luger is a difficult thing. You cannot increase the cachet of a Luger by discussing it here on a board with experts, particularly without the ability to post detailed pictures. It is simply not possible to give you an opinion one way or the other on authenticity or value.

I would love to see your collectable Lugers verified as authentic, and re-enter the collecting community (which has grown considerably over the years). The simple fact is that everything you've mentioned is high value and should be evaluated by an expert.

You posted this:

"No one needs to know a SN to offer advice on value, unless that # is really unique or way out of some known range."

Actually, this is not correct. The only way to determine the authenticity of a very rare variation of Luger is to inspect it in person, in hand - and have the background to recognize what is right and wrong about it. There are experts on this board that have done this many times over many years. To help the collecting community, people like Norm and Tom have compiled lists of guns they have authenticated. These are kept by serial number and description.

Recently, for example, a product of "Waffenfabrik Minneapolis" turned up with the exact same serial number of a known authentic example in Europe.

So, I sincerely hope that you have valuable and authentic Lugers, and am sorry that you have to part with them for financial reasons.

No reference books or online discussion can help develop a fair value estimate or confirm authenticity, with or without serial numbers or accurate photographs.

You should seek full value for your collectables. You should not compromise for estimates from gun show dealers, online forum participants or someone that approaches you by Email.

With very rare artifacts, it's best to get the opinion of experts that are recognized in the field. Even they can make mistakes, but you're more likely to learn the truth from them. They develop their expertise over decades of study, and do their work within the context of an extended community.

The investment they have in study, travel, artifact acquisition and time comes with a price. For that reason it is fair to pay them to authenticate and price a rare valuable collectable. Ultimately, you and a buyer will experience a much fairer transaction if you start with an appraisal.

If you are in a hurry, and cannot do these things it will probably cost you more to make a quick sale, and increase the risk for a buyer.

Of course, cavaet emptor!

[mystical_tutor]

Jerry. Subscribed to the BBoGV. Your right, it sure is general....

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Gary..I have searched the World for Navy stocks..I would love to see yours!
Jerry

Here's a couple of mine!

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...275#post240275

Nice pile of stuff you have there Sure glad my HS teacher didn't have a selection like that or I still wouldn't be able to sit down.

I offer these pictures for what they are. Hard time thinking a stock could have been so many places etc. It is easy to see that the tang has been after fit, by the slack in fit and by the extension of the screws, which I am sure no self-respecting German armorer would have allowed. It is understandable though as in my early days it was still illegal to have stocks with tangs or frames with lugs.

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

u might find a same-ish pistol on this dealer site. http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?...31b6215ad1e5a6

Thanks Ben. Yes I have had that site open on my browser while comparing it to the BBoGV and a couple other on line dealers. Surprisingly some of Simson's prices are not that much different than the others. I actually dealt with them years ago and just ran across one of their catalogues today while trying to find the documentation for my Thai Art.

I do appreciate your time to post it for me though.

Gary

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Hi Gary,

Well, this is becoming an interesting discussion, isn't it?

All of us that are responding to you are interested in being helpful. Clearly, I don't know you, yet I believe members here are sincere and accurate in the responses you've gotten.

I hope I have not sounded huffy in my replies. I do appreciate the efforts you and others are making to insure that I succeed in my mission.

Originally Posted by mrerick

As you've learned, the extremely rare variations of Lugers you have mentioned (Now including Navy Lugers; a Krieghoff; A Bulgarian Mauser and Thai art - not sure if that is a Luger or some other artwork) are priced at a premium above the run of the mill military Lugers most of us are lucky enough to own.

You've also learned about the widespread faking of rare premium priced Lugers. Part of faking them involves establishing a level of authenticity that will satisfy a buyer.

Not a new problem. I was just sad to hear that it is still so active. The problem was bad enough in my younger days as one of the most prolific mail-order sellers was often the pointed subject of such accusations. I would assume technology has made things harder to detect and easier to fake.

Originally Posted by mrerick

Also, from reading an earlier post, I understand you have a fairly good number of spare parts including those for Simson Lugers and others. As you now, Simson Lugers are even more rare than Krieghoffs.

A little miscommunication there. I think some of the parts I have, specially 1900 leaf springs were remanufactured by Simson or some other entity. I do not have any spare Simson parts that I know of. A couple spare Simson magazines and a spare Krieghoff mag, but no proofed parts for either. I was not aware that Simson guns were more rare than Krieghoff. The old numbers we had were 12K for Simson Company Lugers plus the military dated-2K plus the S dates which is more than all the Krieghoffs. Have those numbers been revised downword? I have not read Still’s book on that era.

Originally Posted by mrerick

The simple fact is that determining the authenticity of a rare Luger is a difficult thing. You cannot increase the cachet of a Luger by discussing it here on a board with experts, particularly without the ability to post detailed pictures. It is simply not possible to give you an opinion one way or the other on authenticity or value.

I would love to see your collectable Lugers verified as authentic, and re-enter the collecting community (which has grown considerably over the years). The simple fact is that everything you've mentioned is high value and should be evaluated by an expert.

You posted this:

"No one needs to know a SN to offer advice on value, unless that # is really unique or way out of some known range."

Actually, this is not correct. The only way to determine the authenticity of a very rare variation of Luger is to inspect it in person, in hand - and have the background to recognize what is right and wrong about it….

That is true, IMO. It is probably not going to happen with the pieces I have mentioned. Probably, the only person that will ever hold it and evaluate it is the person interested in buying it. If that is an expert, fine, if not, fine. I will not screw someone for money. As a Christian that is just not the way of my life.

The serial number thing seems to be a real sore point with some board members. I will again assert that, in general cases these numbers are not important until someone wants to own the piece. In the case of my 1914 commercial there is a difference because the number actually establishes what it is, along with a few other discriminators. In that case I would offer it as proof of what it is. My Cav test piece would be another such example. My Simson, my Swiss, unimportant, just one of many as are most of my other Lugers.

Originally Posted by mrerick

There are experts on this board that have done this many times over many years. To help the collecting community, people like Norm and Tom have compiled lists of guns they have authenticated. These are kept by serial number and description.

Recently, for example, a product of "Waffenfabrik Minneapolis" turned up with the exact same serial number of a known authentic example in Europe.

So, I sincerely hope that you have valuable and authentic Lugers, and am sorry that you have to part with them for financial reasons.

No reference books or online discussion can help develop a fair value estimate or confirm authenticity, with or without serial numbers or accurate photographs.

You should seek full value for your collectables. You should not compromise for estimates from gun show dealers, online forum participants or someone that approaches you by Email.

With very rare artifacts, it's best to get the opinion of experts that are recognized in the field. Even they can make mistakes, but you're more likely to learn the truth from them. They develop their expertise over decades of study, and do their work within the context of an extended community.

The investment they have in study, travel, artifact acquisition and time comes with a price. For that reason it is fair to pay them to authenticate and price a rare valuable collectable. Ultimately, you and a buyer will experience a much fairer transaction if you start with an appraisal.

I will take your word for that as I don’t know a soul on this board by reputation. I assume people here are knowledgable or I wouldn’t be spending time here.

You see, at one time I was an expert on Lugers. I corresponded regularly with Sam Costanzo and John Walter. I purchased/traded with people that were solid members of the collecting community, Don Hallock, William Drollinger, R.W. Stevens and others, Conversed with John Martz and Mike Krause. Won awards for “showing” Lugers at gun shows (an almost forgotten concept now). I practically had Costanzo’s book memorized.
That is all ancient history now and most all of my old friends are gone as will I be one day. Hopefully a lot of new information has come to light and many of those blank spots have been filled in. Most of my Lugers I have had for 30 years. I’m really not worried about authenticating them unless it becomes a specific issue with a potential buyer.

Thanks again for your interest and I hope I have addressed your concerns.

Gary

[Norme]

Hi Gary, The reason serial numbers are a sensitive issue among some forum members (including me), is that much of what we know today about Lugers is derived from data bases, comprised of serial numbers willingly shared by hundreds of collectors, many from countries with far more restrictive firearms laws than here in the US. To expect information from the forum without sharing your own seems to me to be, well, a little selfish.
Norm

[alanint]

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

It is understandable though as in my early days it was still illegal to have stocks with tangs or frames with lugs.

Sadly, this was never the case. This was a rumor that was circulated among collectors that soon became "fact". It was a misinterpretation of a clause in the 1934 NFA Act. A correct, period or exact copy of a stock was always legal to have on the appropriate pistol.

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Gary, The reason serial numbers are a sensitive issue among some forum members (including me), is that much of what we know today about Lugers is derived from data bases, comprised of serial numbers willingly shared by hundreds of collectors, many from countries with far more restrictive firearms laws than here in the US. To expect information from the forum without sharing your own seems to me to be, well, a little selfish.
Norm

Sigh. Now I'm selfish...

Let us take a look at what I have asked for.

My request was for a "source" of information about current prices.

Board members requested Pictures and information about my Lugers, then called them worthless when they didn't meet their needs for their agendas.

When I shared my position about the dangers of the internet and SNs It was inferred that I am unreasonable or paranoid or just cantankerous. I have attempted to address the posts, though it is an exercise in futility I see.

Please correct me if I am wrong but have I ever asked any one here to price or buy my guns?

The private posts I have received have all been answered in the same way, See me at the gun show and if they don't sell I'll get in touch with you.

I'm beginning to think this is not the place for me.

Gary

[Ida-Alp]

Sir--Here's what you asked for-- per Jerry-

Buy the "Blue Book" and take it from there!!!

Al

[alanint]

Hi Gary,

I think everybody needs to take a step back. I think members got a little ahead of themselves, considering that guns of the quality you have presented don't often come up.

This is the most polite, professional board that I belong to, so I think now that you have gotten back to what you really need, perhaps members can be more helpful.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gary..Selfish was not the correct word to use to a new Member..NORM! Geeze use a little tact. Without doubt all of the numbers and little markings on Lugers are important..even more so on very scarce/rare Lugers. ANY buyer willing to shell out many thousands for one of these pistols you are wanting to sell is going to comb through them looking for every one. Why? Because that affects price.
I have not been on this thread for a day or so but from what I remember about your Krieghoff, 1943 I think you said the firing pin and guide were not marked. This is something any potential buyer wants to know and he won't like it. Let's say it started out as a $10,000 pistol, now it's a $9,000 pistol. Each and every small detail that should be there that isn't..changes the price.

That's why the grilling you are getting on numbers and markings. People who are taking their time to try and help you. That and some people collect numbers for data bases and are petulant when you don't let them have them!

You say..I’m really not worried about authenticating them unless it becomes a specific issue with a potential buyer. This is why I have lost interest in these postings. We are dealing with a very charming fellow but he is his own worst enemy. You refuse help you so desperately NEED cause I got a news flash. If you don't know your guns inside and out or don't care.. you become a wandering generality. The kind of guy people LOVE to take advantage of. I said it before and I will say it again..A buyer will be counting out many hundreds, thousands of dollars. YOU better know your guns better than he's does and I can guarentee you before he starts peeling off that kind of money..he will know what he's looking at. Knowledge is POWER. Knowledge is money. You hung onto these pistols for many years and now want to cash in..that's great! Do yourself a favor and let people help you out.

But you could be right..This may not be the place for you.

In that case I would consider two avenues for you to get what you need..Contact Tom Whiteman of Legacy Firearms and have him authenticate, grade and price your pistols. He is fair and honest. He will give you the good & bad. Then you will be prepared with written information to show potential buyers when they try to beat you about the head and shoulders on price. You will KNOW what your pistols are and what they should bring in today's market.

Bob Simpson offers the same service.

The Blue Book of Gun Values.

Or go it on your own. Many newbies to gun boards come onto them and get in small snits over one thing or another, puff up, sulk then take their toys elsewhere to play. Unfortunate but I have seen it dozens of times. Gun Boards are a compilation of many people with many interests. Some just want to help, others want to buy, some learning or just looking and a million other reasons. Make of it what you can..Good luck.

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by alanint

Sadly, this was never the case. This was a rumor that was circulated among collectors that soon became "fact". It was a misinterpretation of a clause in the 1934 NFA Act. A correct, period or exact copy of a stock was always legal to have on the appropriate pistol.

Yes it was quite sad. I saw lugers (2) that had stock lugs ground off, unfortunately one was an art. Saw a few stocks where the tang had been removed (and I hope safely tucked away). I also had a frame that had a rebuilt stock lug on it, humm, I may still have that, don't remember trading it off..... LOL. Problem with being a pack rat.

Gary

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

...
A little miscommunication there. I think some of the parts I have, specially 1900 leaf springs were remanufactured by Simson or some other entity. I do not have any spare Simson parts that I know of. A couple spare Simson magazines and a spare Krieghoff mag, but no proofed parts for either. I was not aware that Simson guns were more rare than Krieghoff. The old numbers we had were 12K for Simson Company Lugers plus the military dated-2K plus the S dates which is more than all the Krieghoffs. Have those numbers been revised downword? I have not read Still’s book on that era....Gary

Yes, Jan's book is excellent. And I have read my book, called Simson Lugers.
There were less than 12k of Simson's made total, the S toggle, not really a code. They were made at the same time as they made the Simson & Son toggle AFTER the first 10k and are all 'a' suffix numbered. New books, new information.
My simson database is here on the forum.