New Project! For shooters! - Page 2

G.T. · 07-19-2015, 04:04 PM

Always good to hear from you Ron! ... As mentioned, we are going to wring out any and all possible avenues that will enhance our sport / target effort.... The sport part dictates cost effective and affordable, and the target part as much precision as we can afford, or as required? My original plan would include barrel, mainspring, and hopefully a magazine... Labor options would be barrel install, and rear sight mod, range test...... I'd like to offer trigger work down the road, but fear liability in this area would nullify the whole effort?.... I have an idea on how to make a drop in improvement on the Luger trigger, but that's still a "workshop secret" at this point, and besides, right now, "my plate is really full and my fork is pretty small!" ....

... Again, good to hear from you Ron, til...lat'r...GT...

Olle · 07-27-2015, 01:02 PM

Ok, time to wrap it up, and I would like to thank Sheepherder for the moral and technical support he provided for this part.

The ramp cut was pretty straightforward, I set up the barrel for a cut 50 degrees off the centerline and cut it with a 10mm end mill. It's fresh out of the mill in the picture, so it still needs a little blending to break the sharp edges.

One thing that puzzles me is the width of the original ramp. The drawing shows a straight ramp with a 5mm radius, but making that cut with a straight 10mm end mill creates a ramp that's more like an ellipse where it intersects the end. After eyeballing and gauging several original barrels I realized that these cuts are not cylindrical. They actually taper a bit, thus creating a wider throat at the bottom. I have seen similar ramps on barrels made for rapid fire with double stack mags (the M4 ramp comes to mind), but I can't see that it would be of any benefit on a single stack semi-auto.

I guess the original shape is just a result of anal German engineers trying to follow a drawing that wasn't fully thought out, and a straight, cylindrical cut should actually work better IMO.

The extractor cut was a bit more challenging due to its shape. You can cut this with straight cutters and then use needle files to round it off, but after a few hours on the internet I found a corner rounding end mill that could do the job without any hand adjustment. The dimensions are slightly different than on the original drawing, but the objective is a nice cut with ample clearance for the extractor so the actual dimensions are not extremely critical. I checked for clearance by holding a breech block against the finished cut, and it fit nicely.

This concludes my part of the project, so the barrel is boxed up and will be heading for AZ today. Just some finishing work and installation left to do, then it's ready for the range.

Sieger · 07-27-2015, 01:51 PM

GT,

What are you planning to use for a recoil spring, as you are adding a significant amount of weight to your upper?

Lugers don't need heavy or fat barrels to shoot accurately. Improving the sights and trigger pull should be enough.

Just my experience.

Sieger

kurusu · 07-28-2015, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

GT,

What are you planning to use for a recoil spring, as you are adding a significant amount of weight to your upper?

Lugers don't need heavy or fat barrels to shoot accurately. Improving the sights and trigger pull should be enough.

Just my experience.

Sieger

Ditto.

G.T. · 08-01-2015, 01:12 AM

Of course you fellows are correct!......

..... A heavy barrel probably has less effect on accuracy, but maybe more on balance and feel then a standard issue barrel, but, the main reason I'm going this route is cost! and flexibility? It takes some serious machining and mill work to cut the taper, index and mill out the front sight base!.....

.. I'm not going to ask a fortune for these, and the potential is excellent to build on.... But, for as far as we have gotten! Credit is certainly due to a few fellows on this forum, Olle has done an excellent job on this latest prototype, and the next one will be even more concise as to what we are trying to accomplish? Rich Brennan has done wonders on making and correcting extractor cuts and feed ramp cuts, and has been a trailblazer in this regard, I can't thank him enough....

... It all trickles down until finally it spills over and we accomplish something? I know this much, trying nothing, gets you no where, with either success or failure.... I love the quote M. Zelany (Sp.? sorry!) loosely stated, "Try, fail, try again, fail better" I've found that is probably more correct than most quotes about life efforts?... More to come, lots happening!...

...BTW, I'mmmm Bacccckkkkk! Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

G.T. · 08-01-2015, 01:51 PM

I have a lot of 9MM mainsprings, and there is quite a bit of variance in those?? I'll start with a WW1 DWM 9MM spring for a standard 4" and we'll adjust from there?... I hope it works right outt'a the bucket! ......

....Best to all, til...lat'r...GT......

kurusu · 08-03-2015, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Of course you fellows are correct!......

..... A heavy barrel probably has less effect on accuracy, but maybe more on balance and feel then a standard issue barrel, but, the main reason I'm going this route is cost! and flexibility? It takes some serious machining and mill work to cut the taper, index and mill out the front sight base!.....

.. I'm not going to ask a fortune for these, and the potential is excellent to build on.... But, for as far as we have gotten! Credit is certainly due to a few fellows on this forum, Olle has done an excellent job on this latest prototype, and the next one will be even more concise as to what we are trying to accomplish? Rich Brennan has done wonders on making and correcting extractor cuts and feed ramp cuts, and has been a trailblazer in this regard, I can't thank him enough....

... It all trickles down until finally it spills over and we accomplish something? I know this much, trying nothing, gets you no where, with either success or failure.... I love the quote M. Zelany (Sp.? sorry!) loosely stated, "Try, fail, try again, fail better" I've found that is probably more correct than most quotes about life efforts?... More to come, lots happening!...

...BTW, I'mmmm Bacccckkkkk! Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

I'll tell you a secret. The balance of the issue P.08 suits me just the way it is. Better sights would be another story though (I ain't getting any younger).

G.T. · 08-03-2015, 01:59 PM

Yes! I certainly hear you on the eye sight and age... With my vision, I don't really need sights anyway! .....

.... As for accuracy, everyone has a little different take on weight and balance, apart from barrel vibrations, which are probably minimal in a 4" barrel, the heavy barrel is also supposed to dampen movement and control.... Kinda like throwing a ping pong ball, a baseball and a bowling ball across the street, only one is going to work correctly.. and that is the balance you're after... What ever is correct for you? I personal just like to hear the gun go off!

Best to you, til...lat'r...GT....

kurusu · 08-04-2015, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I have often thought that there was more to the Luger than oem type things. Have to admit I admire the lines of the 4 3/4" slender barrel in a 30 Luger though.

Funny thing. The 4 3/4" .30 and the 4" 9mm have about the same balance. There is a slight advantage for the .30 because (at least in my M2) the vertical back face of the front sight and the longer sight radius give a better aiming picture.

On the other hand good .30 ammo don't grow on trees.

Edward Tinker · 08-04-2015, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

I'll tell you a secret. The balance of the issue P.08 suits me just the way it is. Better sights would be another story though (I ain't getting any younger).

remember, that's your secret, not mine

I like a 5 or 6 inch luger for looks and feel....

kurusu · 08-04-2015, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

remember, that's your secret, not mine

I like a 5 or 6 inch luger for looks and feel....

You're right of course.

Me, for looks shooting and feel, I like the 5" and 4" better.

Olle · 08-04-2015, 11:41 AM

Balance and looks are both a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like a little bit of weight up front for target shooting. If it’s “just right”, it will require enough strain to give it stability, but not enough to make you shaky after a few rounds. It also reduces muzzle flip and makes for more accurate follow-up shots in rapid fire drills. Other people (especially the young’uns who still have steady hands) may like a lighter and more neutrally balanced pistol better. And of course, some wouldn’t even look twice at a bull barrel just because it’s not an original style. There’s no right or wrong, it all boils down to your own opinion, and like Dirty Harry said: “Everybody has one”.

G.T. · 08-04-2015, 06:54 PM

Well, have to wait for back ordered Mauser front blade, so tapped in tall original front sight blade and headed for the range! Gun performed flawlessly!!!!!! .....

.....And felt perfectly balanced, (for my taste!) As for accuracy, I can't tell you as I didn't put it on paper.. (my eyes are not good enough to make that determination....

) But in every respect, this G.T. Sport Target 08 should live up to most expectations......On it's way to Ed now for his personal sight adjustment requirements, and after that bluing? It really looks neat, and maybe Ed will post a few pic's when all is completed?.

... Best to all, til....lat'r....GT.....

Edward Tinker · 08-06-2015, 08:14 PM

So, I have the first Target Sport GT Special !!

I have three 9mm special barrels.

6 inch with target front sight

8 inch long barrel

(both work fine with normal rounds)

New TS GT Special
I have not shot it, since it arrived today - will try to make it to the range in the next few days

G.T. · 08-06-2015, 08:32 PM

Hi Ed! Nice herd! I love the shooter stable! Yes! The first, the prototype, and the only specimen so far! ......

... I have no idea where it is going to shoot, but I suspect high.. hopefully it will group nicely, the rest we can adjust as we proceed! It really has a nice feel to it, and we might be surprised how it performs?... I hope well... I also don't know the twist as the blank was one you had purchased initially, but was definitely cut for a luger, next one will be 1/10 and probably 5"..... then a 6" and if no lines are forming in front of the hotdog stand by then, I will make a few for the future and then on to the next far fetched, hair brained idea??..

.... seems to be my destiny... Thanks, and Best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

Angus Magnus · 08-07-2015, 11:35 AM

I don't know why, but I think I want one!

G.T. · 08-07-2015, 04:12 PM

Hi Aaron! I've just posted in the for sale section...

....... Might stir some interest, might not.... But, it's there for all to see. Best to you, til...lat'r....GT .....

07-19-2015, 04:04 PM	#21
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Hi Ron! Always good to hear from you Ron! ... As mentioned, we are going to wring out any and all possible avenues that will enhance our sport / target effort.... The sport part dictates cost effective and affordable, and the target part as much precision as we can afford, or as required? My original plan would include barrel, mainspring, and hopefully a magazine... Labor options would be barrel install, and rear sight mod, range test...... I'd like to offer trigger work down the road, but fear liability in this area would nullify the whole effort?.... I have an idea on how to make a drop in improvement on the Luger trigger, but that's still a "workshop secret" at this point, and besides, right now, "my plate is really full and my fork is pretty small!" ....... Again, good to hear from you Ron, til...lat'r...GT...

08-01-2015, 01:12 AM	#25
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	As much as I hate to admit! Of course you fellows are correct!........... A heavy barrel probably has less effect on accuracy, but maybe more on balance and feel then a standard issue barrel, but, the main reason I'm going this route is cost! and flexibility? It takes some serious machining and mill work to cut the taper, index and mill out the front sight base!....... I'm not going to ask a fortune for these, and the potential is excellent to build on.... But, for as far as we have gotten! Credit is certainly due to a few fellows on this forum, Olle has done an excellent job on this latest prototype, and the next one will be even more concise as to what we are trying to accomplish? Rich Brennan has done wonders on making and correcting extractor cuts and feed ramp cuts, and has been a trailblazer in this regard, I can't thank him enough....... It all trickles down until finally it spills over and we accomplish something? I know this much, trying nothing, gets you no where, with either success or failure.... I love the quote M. Zelany (Sp.? sorry!) loosely stated, "Try, fail, try again, fail better" I've found that is probably more correct than most quotes about life efforts?... More to come, lots happening!......BTW, I'mmmm Bacccckkkkk! Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

08-01-2015, 01:51 PM	#26
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	As for springs! I have a lot of 9MM mainsprings, and there is quite a bit of variance in those?? I'll start with a WW1 DWM 9MM spring for a standard 4" and we'll adjust from there?... I hope it works right outt'a the bucket! ..........Best to all, til...lat'r...GT......

08-03-2015, 01:59 PM	#28
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	weight? Yes! I certainly hear you on the eye sight and age... With my vision, I don't really need sights anyway! ......... As for accuracy, everyone has a little different take on weight and balance, apart from barrel vibrations, which are probably minimal in a 4" barrel, the heavy barrel is also supposed to dampen movement and control.... Kinda like throwing a ping pong ball, a baseball and a bowling ball across the street, only one is going to work correctly.. and that is the balance you're after... What ever is correct for you? I personal just like to hear the gun go off! Best to you, til...lat'r...GT....

08-04-2015, 06:54 PM	#33
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Range Test!!!!!! Well, have to wait for back ordered Mauser front blade, so tapped in tall original front sight blade and headed for the range! Gun performed flawlessly!!!!!! ..........And felt perfectly balanced, (for my taste!) As for accuracy, I can't tell you as I didn't put it on paper.. (my eyes are not good enough to make that determination....) But in every respect, this G.T. Sport Target 08 should live up to most expectations......On it's way to Ed now for his personal sight adjustment requirements, and after that bluing? It really looks neat, and maybe Ed will post a few pic's when all is completed?. ... Best to all, til....lat'r....GT.....

07-27-2015, 01:02 PM	#22
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Ok, time to wrap it up, and I would like to thank Sheepherder for the moral and technical support he provided for this part. The ramp cut was pretty straightforward, I set up the barrel for a cut 50 degrees off the centerline and cut it with a 10mm end mill. It's fresh out of the mill in the picture, so it still needs a little blending to break the sharp edges. One thing that puzzles me is the width of the original ramp. The drawing shows a straight ramp with a 5mm radius, but making that cut with a straight 10mm end mill creates a ramp that's more like an ellipse where it intersects the end. After eyeballing and gauging several original barrels I realized that these cuts are not cylindrical. They actually taper a bit, thus creating a wider throat at the bottom. I have seen similar ramps on barrels made for rapid fire with double stack mags (the M4 ramp comes to mind), but I can't see that it would be of any benefit on a single stack semi-auto. I guess the original shape is just a result of anal German engineers trying to follow a drawing that wasn't fully thought out, and a straight, cylindrical cut should actually work better IMO. The extractor cut was a bit more challenging due to its shape. You can cut this with straight cutters and then use needle files to round it off, but after a few hours on the internet I found a corner rounding end mill that could do the job without any hand adjustment. The dimensions are slightly different than on the original drawing, but the objective is a nice cut with ample clearance for the extractor so the actual dimensions are not extremely critical. I checked for clearance by holding a breech block against the finished cut, and it fit nicely. This concludes my part of the project, so the barrel is boxed up and will be heading for AZ today. Just some finishing work and installation left to do, then it's ready for the range.

07-27-2015, 01:51 PM	#23
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	GT, What are you planning to use for a recoil spring, as you are adding a significant amount of weight to your upper? Lugers don't need heavy or fat barrels to shoot accurately. Improving the sights and trigger pull should be enough. Just my experience. Sieger

08-04-2015, 11:41 AM	#32
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Balance and looks are both a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like a little bit of weight up front for target shooting. If it’s “just right”, it will require enough strain to give it stability, but not enough to make you shaky after a few rounds. It also reduces muzzle flip and makes for more accurate follow-up shots in rapid fire drills. Other people (especially the young’uns who still have steady hands) may like a lighter and more neutrally balanced pistol better. And of course, some wouldn’t even look twice at a bull barrel just because it’s not an original style. There’s no right or wrong, it all boils down to your own opinion, and like Dirty Harry said: “Everybody has one”.

08-06-2015, 08:14 PM	#34
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	So, I have the first Target Sport GT Special !! I have three 9mm special barrels. 6 inch with target front sight 8 inch long barrel (both work fine with normal rounds) New TS GT Special I have not shot it, since it arrived today - will try to make it to the range in the next few days Attached Thumbnails

08-06-2015, 08:32 PM	#35
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	GT Target Special 08 Hi Ed! Nice herd! I love the shooter stable! Yes! The first, the prototype, and the only specimen so far! ......... I have no idea where it is going to shoot, but I suspect high.. hopefully it will group nicely, the rest we can adjust as we proceed! It really has a nice feel to it, and we might be surprised how it performs?... I hope well... I also don't know the twist as the blank was one you had purchased initially, but was definitely cut for a luger, next one will be 1/10 and probably 5"..... then a 6" and if no lines are forming in front of the hotdog stand by then, I will make a few for the future and then on to the next far fetched, hair brained idea??...... seems to be my destiny... Thanks, and Best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

08-07-2015, 11:35 AM	#36
Angus Magnus User Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Miami Posts: 133 Thanks: 8 Thanked 22 Times in 16 Posts	I don't know why, but I think I want one!

08-07-2015, 04:12 PM	#37
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	see For Sale section!! Hi Aaron! I've just posted in the for sale section.......... Might stir some interest, might not.... But, it's there for all to see. Best to you, til...lat'r....GT .....