d'armes & cycles de-Saint etienne Luger

[Mac Cat]

It looks more like a Swiss Commercial than a Mauser military Luger.
I like the flat black finish - very challenging to photograph !

[wlyon]

Dwight
Thank you. Bill

[Nomadr]

So, am I correct that the side plate should be numbered in the normal commercial location?

I think this one will be sent off to Ted. Or what are the thoughts on the finish?

Bob

[cirelaw]

Bob, the side plate on my commercial luger side plates are blank~Displayed in post 6! Nor is my 1902 Fat Barrel Commercial nor 1908 Commercial ~ After Ted does his magic its value will rise as yours is a rare variation!!!!

[cirelaw]

You have located a singular source and therefore you claim proof of a forgery! All of the toe tag assumptions are based on what is written or claimed to be written a singular magazine article that we cannot access or read ourselves! In law that is called hearsay! What if any other sources support your conclusion that all French has toe tags or lack Is wrong! They were retailer marking Or inventory numerals for sellers inventory retailer directions. I don't believe Brad Simpson would never knowingly sell fakes without your toe tags believing like yourself that those were fakes! Bobs Simpson of whom I contacted last year on this very issue!None! None of his French for sale didn't in response to my inquiry a few year didn't. Can we finally agree that not all legit French lugers had post production inventory numerical tags displayed~What about the underside with several French proofs and a beautiful halo including French markings~~The barrel proofs and halos displayed below I doubt can't be faked! A common sense argument is the question, Why would a Frenchman nor forger who did such beautiful unique and valuable work or forgery and then the creator forgets to include the most important part and forgetfully ad a tag number that is so obvious?? Clearly, a forgery would be costlier! Add 4 numbers and it magically legit! Is this your only concern! Thank you both for your opinions~Eric

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

... All of the toe tag assumptions are based on what is written or claimed to be written a singular magazine article that we cannot access or read ourselves...

The publication can be bought, and you can read it if you read French.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...What if any other sources support your conclusion that all French has toe tags or lack Is wrong! They were retailer marking Or inventory numerals for sellers inventory retailer directions...

We are only talking about "Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne" retailer pistols here.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...I don't believe Brad Simpson would never knowingly sell fakes without your toe tags believing like yourself that those were fakes! Bobs Simpson of whom I contacted last year on this very issue!None! None of his French for sale didn't in response to my inquiry a few year didn't.

I don't believe that about Brad, either. The understanding about the toe number has become a hot topic only fairly recently, concerns a relatively obscure variation, and is not prominent in most people's consciousness. More to be said about this, below.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...Can we finally agree that not all legit French lugers had post production inventory numerical tags displayed

No we cannot. All Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne retailer pistols without a toe number are by definition fake.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...What about the underside with several French proofs and a beautiful halo including French markings...

What French proofs are you talking about? I see only the standard German c/B,U,G proof marks, the shield-with-diagonal which is a normal DWM inspector's mark found commonly on Lugers of this era, and the serial number.

There would in fact be no need for French proofs, as France was one of the countries signatory to the agreement by which some European countries accepted each others proofs.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

A common sense argument is the question, Why would a Frenchman nor forger who did such beautiful unique and valuable work or forgery and then the creator forgets to include the most important part and forgetfully ad a tag number that is so obvious??

Because they didn't know, or didn't believe that their victim would know, or didn't have the appropriate stamps handy, or just didn't care.

I think that we can look forward to seeing new Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne fakes with toe numbers (or old fakes with new number stamps added), partly as a result of these conversations.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

...Clearly, a forgery would be costlier! Add 4 numbers and it magically legit! Is this your only concern!

No, it is not.

There are three primary determiners of Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne authenticity:

1. The serial number range, determined by the years in which the pistol was advertised in the Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne catalog;

2. The inventory toe number;

3. The barrel inscription.

The first indicator that one is looking at a French variation New Model Parabellum is the barrel inscription. Very unfortunately, just having a barrel which says Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne is not enough.

The authentic Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne is roll-die impressed. It is never engraved. The letter forms have some distinctive characteristics, and the inscription is proper French spelling.

It is necessary to examine the French retailer stamp very closely, and in scrupulous detail, to determine its authenticity. Simply by seeing the pistol as Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etienne stamped, and then stating that such a pistol without a toe number can be authentic anyway, is insufficient.

--Dwight

[cirelaw]

With all earned respect Dwight, can you provide photographs of a so-called legit including proofs and halos and not just a singular toe tag number. Please post picture of what you find correct for comparison. The commercial number is correct and contained in the tables. What specific feature is faked besides the missing toe tag? My final post on this discussion~ Eric

[wlyon]

Eric
Sorry you got taken on your French luger. We have all been there. Just part of luger U. The problem I see is the more info we give the forgers the more of these and others we will see. I think the fine details are for PM's or phone calls. I do not mean to cut off valuable information but maybe the finer details. No body likes to be ripped. You have a great collection . One error is not that bad. Bill

[cirelaw]

Bill thank you! You are right! You all convinced me its a bad fake!! A lousy forgery! Case closed!! Now, I thank you as always for your most valuable and unbiased opinions! ~When in Florida please drop by and check out my others~ Debby and I would love to have you over!! We just hosted our first Forum friend last weekend!! I love exchanging luger war stories! Eric & Debby!

[cirelaw]

One final, sorrow, Who Made All The Fakes??

[wlyon]

Eric
There are several good techs who can and do produce very good fakes. Who ever Ralph had doing his was very good. With the modern equipment I am sure it will only get easier. The only thing that can help is shared knowledge. If in doubt put it on the forum. You may not always like the answers but they are accurate and always sincere. Anyone who says he/she hasn't been taken has been very lucky and/or probably has not done much gun dealing. Enjoy your collection and thanks for sharing it with us. Bill

[DonVoigt]

Eric,
thanks for the pictures and recognizing the unfortunate conclusion. Faked lugers are a curse and tough to detect- especially one that is seldom seen and poorly documented in the US.

Just to add insult to injury, the case you show in color is similar to that in the picture but not the same. It is fairly obvious that someone used the picture to "copy" the case- but they used a slightly longer case, with different hardware, and did not get the dividers and spacers the same.

The guys here, actually Norm, saved me from a accepting a faked Navy luger from an auction just 15 or 18 months ago.

This forum is THE place to get your luger vetted! A great "thanks" to all the experts for sharing their knowledge.

[cirelaw]

Don, I stand by my original stance and only my conclusion. Its legit! Simple question, Who was out there making exact copies, 41 pieces and properly marked, but forget a post production to apply 3 or 4 numbers. Some lacked tag because they were never requested or ordered~ DONE! I miss my days in court! Please end this topic~

[DonVoigt]

Eric,
then I'm confused, why did you post this:
"Bill thank you! You are right! You all convinced me its a bad fake!! A lousy forgery! Case closed!! Now, I thank you as always for your most valuable and unbiased opinions!"

Perhaps I mistook your words and they were meant as sarcastic.
There is a emoticon for that -

Sorry if I offended you.

But the case is still not the same.

[wlyon]

Eric
My comments to you were meant to be sincere . If your response to me was sarcasm I am sorry you feel the need for it. I will not respond again. Have a nice day. Bill

[cirelaw]

Bill, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding! I look foward to your knowledge and opinions!! Eric

[ithacaartist]

Eric,

Jurisprudence generally depends on best evidence... I think it's similar to collecting Lugers in this way.

Unless I miss my guess, this pistol was purchased form a well-respected, experienced, studied collector. Making a call about a pistol's authenticity really depends on the evidence available at the time the call is made. If it was misidentified, it would more likely have been because of the evidence available for doing so than an attempt to profit unscrupulously.

Maybe any really "new" info or data about Lugers is appearing in the community at a decreasing rate, but it still happens.

[cirelaw]

Dave, Brilliant, The best evidence rule ruleS"! In Villanova Law School, The first day in Contract Law! Day one, We learned English Common Law upon which our presents laws are based! "Caveat Emptor" meaning buyer beware! Our Uniform Commercial Law dictates that the buyer may rely on the seller's facts and representations given by the sellers his/her agent facts derived. This includes any defects known by the seller but not apparent. All that really matters is that Frenchy is mine and I have cherished it for nearly a decade. The same with lugers. I enjoy posting a luger that may start a discussion on a topic or concern~Our purpose is to take part in our beloved family and learn something in the meantime~ Each of you love the lugers you collect! Each is unique and special to each of us! We are very passionate and protective with our favorites like snapshot of our high school sweethearts! Our friends here are some of my closest anywhere! One Last Request~ If you differ or have your own beliefs, please join in! Our luger sources may someday dry up!-The great part is your post is a discussion and may be researched! I love doing luger research! Most of all I Thank Uncle Ed so much For keeping watch on our Luger Flock an attempting to correct and damage control!! Eric