GL Stamp how Rare is it???

[Herb]

Another beauty, a 1900 commercial, not GL marked though, but complete, from Land of Borchardt. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

[Vlim]

Just for fun:

Notice that both GL logo's are different in style, size and placement.

Does this mean Georg signed them both himself by hand? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[lugercollector]

In the ad there is no claim made to the finish being original!! a very cleverly worded description of the gun!!!

[Doubs]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugercollector:
<strong>In the ad there is no claim made to the finish being original!! a very cleverly worded description of the gun!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I noticed that as well. Much too clever by half.

[Imperial Arms]

To 'GL' or not to 'GL' - that is the question!

This subject may create some debate probably resulting from the lack of reliable information available. We have discussed a few interesting Lugers such as the two M1900 Argentine presidential Lugers (deAlvear and Roca); the real British Test Luger #26; and a cased 1900 Commercial shown displayed on â??The Land of the Borchardtâ?? web site. The use of a 'GL' hallmark creates a few interesting questions such as which Lugers could normally have a â??GLâ?? and which ones are fakes or likely incorrect.

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one M1902/06 â??GLâ?? carbine (cased) known to exist which was offered to a president (in Latin America) who was President Diaz of Mexico; I do not know any M1900/02 pistol which was offered to another world president which was originally hallmarked â??GLâ??. There may exist a few (cased) M1900/02 Lugers which were chamber marked with a presidentâ??s initials, but those Luger would not necessarily have to be hallmarked â??GLâ?? simply because it was offered to a president of a country. In order for an early Luger to be hallmarked â??GLâ??, it would have to be given to a person who was very significant and/or important to DWMâ??s financial interest. If Theodore Rooseveltâ??s 1900 cased Tangent Sight Carbine was not â??GLâ?? hallmarked, why should an Argentine president receive a â??GLâ?? Luger?

In regards to Luger pistols with personal chamber initials, I have never encountered a M1900 in a retailer/factory case which is also hallmarked â??GLâ??. Furthermore, none of the Lugers offered in retailer/factory cases shown in LMP book are â??GLâ?? hallmarked. A few years ago, I had the opportunity to examine in Germany a near mint cased M1900 Luger which was offered and chamber marked to Prince Franz Josef (before he became Emperor of Austria), and believe it or not, that pistol was NOT â??GLâ?? hallmarked.

So, which Lugers could have received a â??GLâ?? hallmark? In my opinion, those Lugers most likely to have a â??GLâ?? would be:

1. Those used in a special trail such as the Swiss, Dutch, British and specific US trials, or those offered to a member of a testing commission;

2. Lugers with very special features or calibers;

3. Presentation Lugers given to royal figures or very important figures in big corporations. There may be one or two special exceptions, but they would probably be unique cases.

Considering the corruption and greed by unscrupulous dealers, and the simplicity to stamp this hallmark on the rear of a toggle, it could easily tempt those people to add a â??GLâ?? hallmark on any Luger which might meet certain requirements for accepting this hallmark to make an extra $10k-$15k profit.

Any Luger with a â??GLâ?? hallmark should be studied very carefully and have a strong provenance to confirm that it is genuine. My opinion/hypothesis is based on many years of experience as well as the examination of a number of â??GLâ?? Lugers.

Albert

[LugermanNH]

Al, I looked at your personal collection on your site as Ron suggested and wow, you have two GL's.
How about posting some more pictures of GL proof and how the serial numbers are stamped on the bolt and toggles so we can compare them with the other guns being offered. Can you show a picture of the trigger widths?

Is there anything written about how and for what reason the "GL" was applied? Didn't they have to apply that before the gun was hardened? I want to learn about this and there must be some source that you gained your knowledge from. Who did you get to authenticate your GL's?

Thanks,

John

[Imperial Arms]

Hello John,

Unfortunately, I do not have access to my photo albums at the moment while I am living overseas which contain macro photos of each 'GL' stamp, namely for my 1900 'Swiss Acceptance' Luger serial #13, and my 1900 'GL' 3-Position Tangent Sight Luger serial #20. Until I can obtain these photos from storage, I shall try my best to describe each 'GL' hallmark and its position relative to a serial number placements.

The 'GL' hallmark on the 1900 'Swiss Acceptance' Luger is stamped on the tail-end of the toggle, however, the serial number of the pistol is stamped below on the rear of the frame as well as on the rear toggle block (see image below) - in other words, the 'GL' and serial number are separated and this arrangement/placement is unique to these series of pistols between 1899 and very early 1900. You might be able to see the 'GL' in the image at an angle and the lightness of the stamp/hallmark.



I would like to point out that this pistol has been Swiss Arsenal refurbished after the end of the Swiss Trials, and a few small parts have been replaced which was normal for a pistol that received some criticisms from the Swiss Pistol Commission. One major criticism was the thin trigger on the original pistols and, consequently, my pistol probably had the original thin trigger replaced with an unnumbered wide trigger when they became available between 1902/03 (?). Furthermore, the extractor was replaced with a reinforced 'hump' extractor; the ejector was replaced and stamped internally with a '+' on the 'hook'; and the front sight was replaced and also stamped with a '+'. My pistol was NOT one of the 20 pistols which participated in the 1899 Swiss Trials, but instead, one of the 20 pistols which was presented as gifts to the Swiss Pistol Commission after the trials. Not a bad idea for a good marketing strategy! For this reason, it is accepted that these pistols had been stamped with a 'GL' hallmark. In regards to the serial number placement, I would like to highlight three important numbers, namely the one on the right side of the magazine release and takedown lever, and the one on the underside of the barrel, parallel to the bore axis. Interestingly, the barrel on my pistol was not replaced, unlike the one on the M1899 serial #19.

In regards to my 1900 Tangent Sight Luger, the 'GL' hallmark is stamped slightly more bold and deeper than compared to other 'GL' Lugers which I have examined. To give a general idea of depth, the 'GL' is about the same depth as the numbers on the ramp sight. It is my opinion that the 'GL' and serial numbers were stamped on the pistol before specific areas were hardened. In the case of the Tangent Sight Lugers with a 'GL' hallmark (bear in mind that some of these pistols and carbines do not have a 'GL' hallmark), both these stamps were close together, the 'GL' on top and the serial number on the bottom. There is no set rule or pattern which determines whether a 'GL' hallmark is correct or incorrect, and in most cases, a collector has to go with his 'gut feeling' and logic. For example, when examining a 'GL' Luger, do not only examine the 'GL' hallmark - examine the entire pistol and look for those 'comfort zones' which prove authenticity.

Buying rare and expensive Lugers might leave a collector exposed to the aggressive nature, jealousy and criticisms from other collectors and dealers, and for this reason, I have always had my Lugers authenticated and certified by my personal friend Mr. Charles Kenyon with whom I have had so far a 20 year relationship. Should I ever sell a Luger from my personal collection, it also comes with the certificate of authenticity.

As I continue to conduct more research on Ludw. Loewe & Co., the two brothers and their financial 'empire', the DWM factory and Georg Luger's role and duties in the company, I may wish to provide another hypothesis for the meaning of the 'GL' hallmark. But, that might be another chapter!

Cheers,
Albert