1897 Borchardt U.S. Military Test Piece - Page 2

Edward Tinker · 07-16-2003, 06:55 PM

FWIW = for what its worth

Ed

Big Norm · 07-17-2003, 03:29 PM

Man, what a terrific discussion!!. I have been trying to find a reference to something else that I read about the Borchardt. But I can't find it so I will have to improvise.

I read someplace that the Borchardt was tested by some government. Because of the differences in loads of different ammunition manufacturers of that period, there had to be factory representatives at the testings to adjust the main spring to accomodate the pistol to the ammo. This discouraged many buyers and made the pistol a curio even in its own time.

Tom A, I respectfully agree with you that an expert grey beard should help a newbie on the purchase of Lugers. But these experts are not often available. I have some local Luger collectors who I use to help me eliminate emotion. But, in no way would they know about a Borchardt, Kreighoff, 1902 carbine, 1906 Russian and other comparatively rare Lugers. I have also seen Shattuck, Simpson, Doug Smith and others make mistakes. I try to be not too hard on them because there is an awful lot to know and to judge authenticity.

When I stand in a gun show, the quality of both you and Ron Wood just isn't available. I once emailed you about a 1904 navy that was available and you offered some invaluable advise and I am truly thankful to you regarding the wise advise you gave me. I recently emailed Ron about some M2 Portuguese Lugers that I recently purchased. Fortunately, he had some pictures to help him advise me. He settled some questions that I had and I am very thankful to him for it. But sometimes even someone who has some knowledge stands alone when a decision needs to be made. Sometimes the only thing a guy has are the books to go by. Even though they too are sometimes in error.
Big Norm

Jim Keenan · 07-17-2003, 09:43 PM

Hi, Big Norm,

Ammo was a problem to all the early auto pistol makers. The ammo makers were used to turning out revolver loads where consistency and exact dimensions were important, but rarely critical. If you want to have fun get a copy of U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns by Chuck Suydam and look at the dimensions for rounds by different makers. All over the lot!

But auto pistols, as Luger collectors know better than anyone, are a lot more picky. Things have to be darn near right. I had not heard of tweaking a Borchardt spring, though I guess it could be done, and might have to be. Mostly though, the demonstrators just brought their own ammo, as Tauscher did.

A bit O.T., but one interesting sidelight of the ammo problems of those days still affects us down the decades. When the .45 ACP cartridge was first being developed, Frankford Arsenal was having problems with case length control, very critical for a round that is supported (headspaced) on the case mouth. (Browning's previous cartridges had been semi-rimmed; he probably got the idea of a rimless case from Luger.)

So the Army asked Browning to design an extractor that would be able to reach the extractor groove even if the case was shorter than standard. The "internal" extractor of the M1911, with the wide gap between breech face and extractor hook, is the result, and it has been one of the few problem areas of the pistol ever since.

Jim

Sgt Art · 07-18-2003, 03:40 PM

Way off topic, but I believe Hans Tauscher was invovled in espionage and sabotage during or leading up to WWI. Here's a site regarding that:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci1/ch3c.htm

Edward Tinker · 07-18-2003, 04:10 PM

I heard he was "accused" and they seized all the guns / equipment, was deported, but nothing else?

He dropped out of sight after that, no one seems to know where he ended up.

From what I remember...

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 07-19-2003, 01:15 AM

Here is some info. on Capt. Tauscher's wife, with a bit of info. on his troubles; half-way down the article :

http://www.marstonrecords.com/Gadski/gladski_liner.htm

Understand he bought dynamite and was tried for the plot to try to blow up the Welland canal...

Here is another site link :

http://classicalcdreview.com/gadski.htm

He was tried by Canada for the Welland canal thing, but was aquited...but the USA apparently decided to deport him, anyways,,,

In Sam Costanzo's booklet on German Agent Lugers, there is a 1920's letter from some military/intelligence folks reporting a drunk lady's account of Tauscher boasting in Germany that he would be trying to re-enter the USA...Seems the immigration folks were alerted and Tauscher may not have re-entered the USA...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Brew_Ha_Ha · 07-19-2003, 09:14 PM

I saw this very Borchardt today at a gun show in Charlotte, NC. The guy that was selling it was very nice and very knowledgable about all the pistols he had(about 30 or so and about 70 more Lugers at home). www.phoenixinvestmentsarms.com is his website. Unfortunatly, I was able to hold the gun and look at the points of wear as stated above as I was too wowed by the holster and the bright shiney parts on the gun.

He is selling the Borchardt and others to get another Luger(1902 Prototype.)

I hope I made you all jealous

.

He had two Deathhead Lugers, although I couldnt tell if it was mickey mouse or a skull and crossbones, but he was confident they were real.

One Luger he had, was a minty looking AF Stoeger American Eagle, it still has the original cosmoline oil from the factory, this thing looked out of the box, and it made you fell back in time. He also had many Artillery, a Kreighoff, and a Luger contract pistol that had an E marking on the chamber.(I forget the country, Bulgaria?) He also had a very nice Railroad Police Luger with the Flying Wheel grips, oh how I wanted that! But of course I'd settle for the two Russian Contracts he had, well, I am still starting my collect only 1/30 Lugers I want.

That Borchardt was....nice. First one I have seen in real life, although I didnt get to hold it. if you have 26000 American, go for it!

guns3545 · 06-16-2009, 05:16 PM

Ron,

Reference the PM e-mail we just exchanged and this particular message, was there a final conclusion reached about the fire bluing versus straw on the Toggle Lock?? Refinish? Manufacturing quirk?

Thanks.

John

PS, I'll send you a follow PM.

JR

Ron Wood · 06-16-2009, 06:02 PM

John,
I enjoyed our correspondence. It let me go back and review old material. In my opinion, the toggle lock should be strawed, but it is real easy to go past straw and into blue when heating a part so your guess is as good as mine. If pressed, I would probably suggest refinish, at least on that part.

Heinz · 06-19-2009, 08:26 AM

Ron, excellent analysis. Unless David Eash wants to jump in I do not think there is much to add.

07-16-2003, 06:55 PM	#21
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	FWIW = for what its worth Ed <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-18-2003, 04:10 PM	#25
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I heard he was "accused" and they seized all the guns / equipment, was deported, but nothing else? He dropped out of sight after that, no one seems to know where he ended up. From what I remember... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-19-2003, 09:14 PM	#27
Brew_Ha_Ha User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NC Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I saw this very Borchardt today at a gun show in Charlotte, NC. The guy that was selling it was very nice and very knowledgable about all the pistols he had(about 30 or so and about 70 more Lugers at home). www.phoenixinvestmentsarms.com is his website. Unfortunatly, I was able to hold the gun and look at the points of wear as stated above as I was too wowed by the holster and the bright shiney parts on the gun. He is selling the Borchardt and others to get another Luger(1902 Prototype.) I hope I made you all jealous . He had two Deathhead Lugers, although I couldnt tell if it was mickey mouse or a skull and crossbones, but he was confident they were real. One Luger he had, was a minty looking AF Stoeger American Eagle, it still has the original cosmoline oil from the factory, this thing looked out of the box, and it made you fell back in time. He also had many Artillery, a Kreighoff, and a Luger contract pistol that had an E marking on the chamber.(I forget the country, Bulgaria?) He also had a very nice Railroad Police Luger with the Flying Wheel grips, oh how I wanted that! But of course I'd settle for the two Russian Contracts he had, well, I am still starting my collect only 1/30 Lugers I want. That Borchardt was....nice. First one I have seen in real life, although I didnt get to hold it. if you have 26000 American, go for it! __________________ Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

06-16-2009, 06:02 PM	#29
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	John, I enjoyed our correspondence. It let me go back and review old material. In my opinion, the toggle lock should be strawed, but it is real easy to go past straw and into blue when heating a part so your guess is as good as mine. If pressed, I would probably suggest refinish, at least on that part. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-17-2003, 03:29 PM	#22
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Man, what a terrific discussion!!. I have been trying to find a reference to something else that I read about the Borchardt. But I can't find it so I will have to improvise. I read someplace that the Borchardt was tested by some government. Because of the differences in loads of different ammunition manufacturers of that period, there had to be factory representatives at the testings to adjust the main spring to accomodate the pistol to the ammo. This discouraged many buyers and made the pistol a curio even in its own time. Tom A, I respectfully agree with you that an expert grey beard should help a newbie on the purchase of Lugers. But these experts are not often available. I have some local Luger collectors who I use to help me eliminate emotion. But, in no way would they know about a Borchardt, Kreighoff, 1902 carbine, 1906 Russian and other comparatively rare Lugers. I have also seen Shattuck, Simpson, Doug Smith and others make mistakes. I try to be not too hard on them because there is an awful lot to know and to judge authenticity. When I stand in a gun show, the quality of both you and Ron Wood just isn't available. I once emailed you about a 1904 navy that was available and you offered some invaluable advise and I am truly thankful to you regarding the wise advise you gave me. I recently emailed Ron about some M2 Portuguese Lugers that I recently purchased. Fortunately, he had some pictures to help him advise me. He settled some questions that I had and I am very thankful to him for it. But sometimes even someone who has some knowledge stands alone when a decision needs to be made. Sometimes the only thing a guy has are the books to go by. Even though they too are sometimes in error. Big Norm

07-17-2003, 09:43 PM	#23
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, Big Norm, Ammo was a problem to all the early auto pistol makers. The ammo makers were used to turning out revolver loads where consistency and exact dimensions were important, but rarely critical. If you want to have fun get a copy of U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns by Chuck Suydam and look at the dimensions for rounds by different makers. All over the lot! But auto pistols, as Luger collectors know better than anyone, are a lot more picky. Things have to be darn near right. I had not heard of tweaking a Borchardt spring, though I guess it could be done, and might have to be. Mostly though, the demonstrators just brought their own ammo, as Tauscher did. A bit O.T., but one interesting sidelight of the ammo problems of those days still affects us down the decades. When the .45 ACP cartridge was first being developed, Frankford Arsenal was having problems with case length control, very critical for a round that is supported (headspaced) on the case mouth. (Browning's previous cartridges had been semi-rimmed; he probably got the idea of a rimless case from Luger.) So the Army asked Browning to design an extractor that would be able to reach the extractor groove even if the case was shorter than standard. The "internal" extractor of the M1911, with the wide gap between breech face and extractor hook, is the result, and it has been one of the few problem areas of the pistol ever since. Jim

07-18-2003, 03:40 PM	#24
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Way off topic, but I believe Hans Tauscher was invovled in espionage and sabotage during or leading up to WWI. Here's a site regarding that: http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci1/ch3c.htm

07-19-2003, 01:15 AM	#26
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is some info. on Capt. Tauscher's wife, with a bit of info. on his troubles; half-way down the article : http://www.marstonrecords.com/Gadski/gladski_liner.htm Understand he bought dynamite and was tried for the plot to try to blow up the Welland canal... Here is another site link : http://classicalcdreview.com/gadski.htm He was tried by Canada for the Welland canal thing, but was aquited...but the USA apparently decided to deport him, anyways,,, In Sam Costanzo's booklet on German Agent Lugers, there is a 1920's letter from some military/intelligence folks reporting a drunk lady's account of Tauscher boasting in Germany that he would be trying to re-enter the USA...Seems the immigration folks were alerted and Tauscher may not have re-entered the USA... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-16-2009, 05:16 PM	#28
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 437 Thanks: 655 Thanked 492 Times in 218 Posts	Ron, Reference the PM e-mail we just exchanged and this particular message, was there a final conclusion reached about the fire bluing versus straw on the Toggle Lock?? Refinish? Manufacturing quirk? Thanks. John PS, I'll send you a follow PM. JR

06-19-2009, 08:26 AM	#30
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Ron, excellent analysis. Unless David Eash wants to jump in I do not think there is much to add.