9mm ammo - Page 2

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 08:11 PM

Vlim,

As always, very informative!!!

Thanks!!!

Sieger

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'm no "expert" but I have looked at late Mauser chambers that do not have the step.
The drawing or order showing its elimination is in the Goertz and Sturgess book,IIRC; but I have seen it in the original form somewhere.

Don,

I have their book,

Do you have the chapter and page number?

Thanks!!

Sieger

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

If the round chambers correctly and the specs are correct I can't see how this would damage a Luger.

4 Scale,

You assume that the specs are correct for a Luger.

Probably (most likely) not.

Hot ammo causes breach block slap in Lugers, eventually beating the pistol to destruction.

Sieger

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhuff

David,

I have purchased a fair amount of ammo from SGAMMO, and have been happy with their operation. Only 1-2 weeks ago, SGAMMO had a two(2) day only sale on PMC 115gr FMJ 9mm ammo, and I couldn't pass it up. This ammo works great in my Lugers and one other ammo sensitive weapon. Glad to hear that your purchase has been a success for you in your weapons.....always a nice feeling to make a good choice!! The price was certainly attractive, and would be popular for 9mm "buzz gun" owners.

rhuff,

PMC ammo does not have steel cases and they have advanced quality control.

I've shot quite a bit of their ammo over the years, but have experienced some jamming in my Lugers.

Sieger

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Mauser worked on a request by the army and developed a hand reamer for the job. But since the P08 was already near the end of production in 1942, not much importance was given to the project.

Factory documents on the subject did survive.

Portuguese 5012m also has no step.

Vlim,

A hand reamer would seem to indicate a field modification, not a change in factory barrel design modification.

Your thoughts?

Sieger

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

I read it too. But to me the proof is:

A friend of mine (retired militay) has one of our contract byf 42s (n block). It has conic chambers and it has never been messed with.

Kurusu,

Did he purchase his Luger factory new?

Thanks!!

Sieger

Sieger · 10-01-2018, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Just bought a case of this stuff and tried some out at the range. Only fired 15 rounds thru my 1936 P08 shooter, but got perfect function and better accuracy than I deserve. No problems in the other three 9's I tried either.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/barna...ox-lacquered-s

David,

Is 15 rounds a realistic test set?

On the other hand, if it's only a shooter and not a collector grade Luger, perhaps your reasoning is correct!

Sieger

4 Scale · 10-01-2018, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

4 Scale,

You assume that the specs are correct for a Luger.

Probably (most likely) not.

Hot ammo causes breach block slap in Lugers, eventually beating the pistol to destruction.

Sieger

Oh, I don't assume that. I've had issues with Russian quality in the past in non-firearm areas which makes me wary. I appreciate David sharing his results and wish him well with this ammo but I don't plan to use it myself.

Vlim · 10-02-2018, 09:55 AM

Both options were developed. The hand reamer was meant for modifications of existing pistols, while the removal of the step in new pistols was just a minor change in production steps.

The hand reamer was also used to test the effectiveness of the modification.

About steel cases, I think the old lacquer coating did more harm than the steel case itself.

Sieger · 10-02-2018, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Both options were developed. The hand reamer was meant for modifications of existing pistols, while the removal of the step in new pistols was just a minor change in production steps.

The hand reamer was also used to test the effectiveness of the modification.

About steel cases, I think the old lacquer coating did more harm than the steel case itself.

Vlim,

Thanks!!

I knew that you would know!!!

Sieger

kurusu · 10-02-2018, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Kurusu,

Did he purchase his Luger factory new?

Thanks!!

Sieger

It was on service before he purchased it. And we didn't ream the chambers.

Sieger · 10-02-2018, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

It was on service before he purchased it. And we didn't ream the chambers.

Kurusu,

Thanks!

Sieger

Zorba · 10-02-2018, 11:03 PM

I don't pretend to know the square root of eff all about this subject, but two pages and I have yet to hear any concrete reason as to why the OP's ammo would be harmful to a Luger, or any other gun. All I'm reading here is FUD - come on guys, we can do better than this.

Sieger · 10-03-2018, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

I don't pretend to know the square root of eff all about this subject, but two pages and I have yet to hear any concrete reason as to why the OP's ammo would be harmful to a Luger, or any other gun. All I'm reading here is FUD - come on guys, we can do better than this.

Zorba,

Breach block slap.

Sieger

DonVoigt · 10-03-2018, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Zorba,

Breach block slap.

Sieger

I do believe Zorba meant why that particular ammo would cause harm.
We have most all seen evidence of "toggle slap", but have no idea whether a few or a few hundred rounds of "hot ammo" caused it- or thousands of rounds of "normal" 9mm P; or a weak mainspring caused the any problem

You and others "assume" it will cause "problems", but without any data or experience with the same ammo to back it up.
Without evidence- like published velocity data, or first hand experience; it is all conjecture.
Everyone has said- "maybe, could, might, possible"; which sounds like "nervous Nellies" to me.

JMHO.

Zorba · 10-03-2018, 11:50 AM

Yep.

DavidJayUden · 10-03-2018, 11:54 AM

I'll take both the Russian stuff and some Winchester white box along with a roll of masking tape the next time I go to the range. It will be very unscientific but I'll try to determine if one or the other flattens the tape more violently. 2 or 3 layers of tape across the contact points on the back?
dju

ithacaartist · 10-03-2018, 01:29 PM

One layer should do it.

kurusu · 10-03-2018, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I do believe Zorba meant why that particular ammo would cause harm.
We have most all seen evidence of "toggle slap", but have no idea whether a few or a few hundred rounds of "hot ammo" caused it- or thousands of rounds of "normal" 9mm P; or a weak mainspring caused the any problem

You and others "assume" it will cause "problems", but without any data or experience with the same ammo to back it up.
Without evidence- like published velocity data, or first hand experience; it is all conjecture.
Everyone has said- "maybe, could, might, possible"; which sounds like "nervous Nellies" to me.

JMHO.

My view on "toggle slap". Toggle slap is part of the Luger operation as much as the mark on the VIS of a 1911. It will occur with any military specs ammo. The amount of firing done with the pistol will increase the marked area without fail. The truth is, most Lugers were very seldom fired, even during the war, pistols were mostly a badge of rank or a last resort weapon. Any Luger that has shot more than 2k rounds will have evidence of "toggle slap". Either you shoot it or you don't.

Of course you can carefully tailor loads that will not do that (around 850 fps with a 124gr bullet will do that, and the pistol will cycle), but they be will well below any militay specs load performance. And the Luger was designed as a militay pistol from the start even those in .30 caliber.

Rick W. · 10-03-2018, 08:13 PM

Context kinda comes to mind.

War weapons, used in war, the longevity of the weapon is not a primary goal, make them cheaply and put as many into your side's hands as possible. Ammo kinda the same to me, steel is easier to procure than brass.........hard on chambers, but............who cares in events like that; as long as it goes bang, what's a little toggle slap or accelerated wear among friends? That same thought process even pertains to the poor individuals behind them, after all, everything or anyone is certainly replaceable in some circles.

Everyone has their own thoughts on all of this Luger pistol, Luger ammo, springs, etc. Some think as long as it goes bang, we don't care beyond that. Some that want to preserve what they have, try to use methods that will keep the pistol intact for a while. All pistols break, does not seem logical to me(my own opinion surely) that I should go looking for trouble by ignoring what the pistol is telling me, sorta speak.

Barrel steel is relatively soft, is cartridge steel harder or softer?. Perhaps an exercise for the internet google types huh? for those do it yourselfers, rub a piece of cartridge brass on a steel barrel(hopefully a discarded barrel, not your 1900). Then rub a piece of steel cartridge onto the barrel; each until you give up on the possible learning(if any) concept. One might consider using the case sharp mouth as the contact to the barrel, might take longer, smooth on smooth; but to each their own process. Could be just a silly Rick W. snipe hunt.......... :-) Never done it myself, but I can imagine...........and that is still a freedom currently.

I shoot Lugers a fair amount, even the ones in stainless that everyone bad mouths, all I can say is that my Lugers, stainless and blue are getting the best I can give them. Not making many anymore, I can see the time where my lamp for these pistols will eventually go out...........but hopefully my Lugers will still function and offer their mystique to the next user says the non collector.

As usual............to each their own..............maybe one of our greatest freedoms.

10-03-2018, 01:29 PM	#38
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	One layer should do it. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

10-03-2018, 08:13 PM	#40
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Context kinda comes to mind. War weapons, used in war, the longevity of the weapon is not a primary goal, make them cheaply and put as many into your side's hands as possible. Ammo kinda the same to me, steel is easier to procure than brass.........hard on chambers, but............who cares in events like that; as long as it goes bang, what's a little toggle slap or accelerated wear among friends? That same thought process even pertains to the poor individuals behind them, after all, everything or anyone is certainly replaceable in some circles. Everyone has their own thoughts on all of this Luger pistol, Luger ammo, springs, etc. Some think as long as it goes bang, we don't care beyond that. Some that want to preserve what they have, try to use methods that will keep the pistol intact for a while. All pistols break, does not seem logical to me(my own opinion surely) that I should go looking for trouble by ignoring what the pistol is telling me, sorta speak. Barrel steel is relatively soft, is cartridge steel harder or softer?. Perhaps an exercise for the internet google types huh? for those do it yourselfers, rub a piece of cartridge brass on a steel barrel(hopefully a discarded barrel, not your 1900). Then rub a piece of steel cartridge onto the barrel; each until you give up on the possible learning(if any) concept. One might consider using the case sharp mouth as the contact to the barrel, might take longer, smooth on smooth; but to each their own process. Could be just a silly Rick W. snipe hunt.......... :-) Never done it myself, but I can imagine...........and that is still a freedom currently. I shoot Lugers a fair amount, even the ones in stainless that everyone bad mouths, all I can say is that my Lugers, stainless and blue are getting the best I can give them. Not making many anymore, I can see the time where my lamp for these pistols will eventually go out...........but hopefully my Lugers will still function and offer their mystique to the next user says the non collector. As usual............to each their own..............maybe one of our greatest freedoms. Last edited by Rick W.; 10-03-2018 at 09:09 PM.

10-01-2018, 08:11 PM	#21
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Vlim, As always, very informative!!! Thanks!!! Sieger

10-02-2018, 09:55 AM	#29
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Both options were developed. The hand reamer was meant for modifications of existing pistols, while the removal of the step in new pistols was just a minor change in production steps. The hand reamer was also used to test the effectiveness of the modification. About steel cases, I think the old lacquer coating did more harm than the steel case itself.

10-02-2018, 11:03 PM	#33
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	I don't pretend to know the square root of eff all about this subject, but two pages and I have yet to hear any concrete reason as to why the OP's ammo would be harmful to a Luger, or any other gun. All I'm reading here is FUD - come on guys, we can do better than this.

10-03-2018, 11:50 AM	#36
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	Yep.

10-03-2018, 11:54 AM	#37
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'll take both the Russian stuff and some Winchester white box along with a roll of masking tape the next time I go to the range. It will be very unscientific but I'll try to determine if one or the other flattens the tape more violently. 2 or 3 layers of tape across the contact points on the back? dju