Inherited 1918 Erfurt with police holster and two mags - Page 2

Don M · 11-09-2018, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

This is the original spare magazine for your gun!!!!! How it got into this other gun is a mystery. So another mystery..where is it?

Working on it.

OBXmom · 11-10-2018, 06:40 PM

Ok, we disassembled the piece today, and I'm relieved to say the reassembly went well also.
Jerry,
You mentioned the rear toggle pin and a fluted firing pin. As seen below, the rear toggle pin is marked with a 90. The firing pin has a few markings and are the the cuts in it what you refer to as fluting?

OBXmom · 11-10-2018, 06:59 PM

Jerry,
you also asked about a pic of the inside left grip, and piece without the grip.

OBXmom · 11-10-2018, 07:23 PM

There were marking everywhere inside. Here are a few more photos.

HerrKaiser · 11-10-2018, 07:51 PM

I do believe that when they are asking about the grip straps they are asking to look at the parts of the gun as shown in my pictures attached here.

DavidJayUden · 11-10-2018, 08:00 PM

O:
The deep cuts near the top of the firing pin in the photo are what we refer to as fluting. I believe that this was a later addition to Lugers so in the event of a pierced primer the sudden infusion of hot gasses would have an escape path to bleed off thru rather than forcing the entire firing pin toward the rear.
Certainly a well-marked gun and you have done a good job on the photos.
dju

lugerholsterrepair · 11-10-2018, 08:52 PM

Diane, Excellent job! The fluted firing pin David mentions and the numbered rear toggle pin are indicators of the pistol being re worked by Mauser. The pistol was not equipped with these features when it was originally made.

The bore is excellent! Shows very little use.

The interior rails being in the white is an indication that the pistol has it's original bluing.

Nicely done..
Did Don ever contact you about the wood bottom magazine with your serial number? Does he know where it might be?

Good follow up Girl! Fell apart like I said didn't it? There is a slight trick putting it back together..

OBXmom · 11-10-2018, 10:26 PM

Thank you Jerry!
Don did help me with some contact info. The first email address came back undeliverable (I was crushed!). Don had another email address, so I resent but we haven't had a response yet. I'll definitely post an update if I hear from him.
The wooden based mags are what would have been made for the piece back in 1918, right? When would the aluminum ones have been added, when it went into police service? But that wooden base has the police unit marking, so I'm confused. Do you ever find a piece that has matching wood and aluminum mags?
Anything unusual or special I also about any of the other markings?
Thank you for being patient with all my questions!
Diane

DonVoigt · 11-10-2018, 10:51 PM

If the wood based mag was servicable, it would have add the markings added upon entering police service, the aluminum base dates to around 1930, and may have been added at the time of the addition of the sear safety.

Thanks for the picture of the left side, but the area of the frame at the top of the grip is too dark to see much. I'm looking for about a 5/16" hole above the trigger but under the side plate, where part of the magazine safety would have intruded into the mag well.

In the first picture, you can see the hole, but the mag safety is removed; the other three(a different pistol) show the magazine safety in place and with the grip in place also.

The mag safety did not work really well, and they were ordered removed or incapacitated in 1936-7. An intact safety is rare, some were removed completely, some only partially.

OBXmom · 11-10-2018, 11:00 PM

Whew, I think this is the shot you're looking for?

DonVoigt · 11-10-2018, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

O:
The deep cuts near the top of the firing pin in the photo are what we refer to as fluting. I believe that this was a later addition to Lugers so in the event of a pierced primer the sudden infusion of hot gasses would have an escape path to bleed off thru rather than forcing the entire firing pin toward the rear.
Certainly a well-marked gun and you have done a good job on the photos.
dju

This just not correct and is one of those myths that keeps on giving because it sounds logical: but, there is nowhere for the "gas" to escape from the fluting to.
If one just looks at the relation of the grooves/flutes to any possible escape point, one sees that they do not reach any.

The grooves are there to allow any dirt/powder/oil debris a place to live without rendering the striker immobile.
If anything, the grooves add more area for the gas pressure to push against, and we know that the force= area x pressure.

The Finns added an approx. 3/32" escape hole in the bottom of the breech block to address gas from a pierced primer; just at the forward most reach of the striker, the escape hole shown below. This hole allows an immediate and direct escape for excess gas, but not without the potential of damaging the magazine, and grips- which is the next area the gas escapes to if vented from the hole shown.

The fluting was added according to an Army directive in 1930 to be completed by 1931 and was practiced by armorers and repair depots; the fluting also applied to deliveries of New production(BKIW and later Mauser). The actual document is found in the three volume Goertz and Sturgess books,p. 1116. The numbering of the rear toggle pin was ordered in 1932, found on p-1120(Green edition).

lugerholsterrepair · 11-10-2018, 11:06 PM

Diane, yes to both your questions. The wooden based mags are what would have been made for the piece back in 1918, right? Correct. Originally this pistol came with two wood based magazines numbered to it.

Don is correct. Often these are found in Police service with both types, wood & aluminum. During the Weimar era money was tight and nothing was wasted.

Good that you have a line on your missing magazine..If you get no response you may want to publish the name of the last known owner. It could be that a Member here is familiar with the gentleman and his current contact information.

OBXmom · 11-10-2018, 11:13 PM

So since there is no hole, this piece never had a mag safety installed?

lugerholsterrepair · 11-10-2018, 11:22 PM

Exactly

Don M · 11-11-2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

If you get no response you may want to publish the name of the last known owner. It could be that a Member here is familiar with the gentleman and his current contact information.

As listed (with his permission) in HWIS in the caption for Fig. 14-16, the owner is/was Charles Wagner.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-11-2018, 06:29 PM

Well there you go. Charles is alive and well and I have had very recent communication with him. He is a good man.

Don M · 11-11-2018, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Well there you go. Charles is alive and well and I have had very recent communication with him. He is a good man.

I hope he still has the mag. I don't have a dog in this hunt but would sure love to see Diane's pistol and Charlie's mag reunited.

OBXmom · 11-11-2018, 10:57 PM

Oh my! I haven't received an answer from the email I sent, but I would really like to speak with him! Jerry, could you let him know I'm trying to reach him? I purposely didn't include any links or pics in my email so it wouldn't get sent to his junk folder, but maybe it did anyway?
This has been such a needed distraction. My son deploys very soon to the sandbox, and I handle such things much better when I'm busy. I think that's why my husband had me conduct this research. He's perfectly capable, but he is a master strategist!
So, if anyone out there knows how I can reach Mr Wagner, I would appreciate any information or assistance!
Thank you,
Diane

OBXmom · 11-11-2018, 11:00 PM

I forgot to mention. My email is
[email protected]
Thank you!

lugerholsterrepair · 11-11-2018, 11:37 PM

Diane, I contacted Charles..hopefully he will respond to this thread, or you. Let me know!

11-10-2018, 06:40 PM	#22
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	Ok, we disassembled the piece today, and I'm relieved to say the reassembly went well also. Jerry, You mentioned the rear toggle pin and a fluted firing pin. As seen below, the rear toggle pin is marked with a 90. The firing pin has a few markings and are the the cuts in it what you refer to as fluting? Attached Thumbnails

11-10-2018, 06:59 PM	#23
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	Jerry, you also asked about a pic of the inside left grip, and piece without the grip. Attached Thumbnails

11-10-2018, 07:23 PM	#24
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	There were marking everywhere inside. Here are a few more photos. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-10-2018, 07:51 PM	#25
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	I do believe that when they are asking about the grip straps they are asking to look at the parts of the gun as shown in my pictures attached here. Attached Thumbnails __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

11-10-2018, 08:52 PM	#27
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Diane, Excellent job! The fluted firing pin David mentions and the numbered rear toggle pin are indicators of the pistol being re worked by Mauser. The pistol was not equipped with these features when it was originally made. The bore is excellent! Shows very little use. The interior rails being in the white is an indication that the pistol has it's original bluing. Nicely done.. Did Don ever contact you about the wood bottom magazine with your serial number? Does he know where it might be? Good follow up Girl! Fell apart like I said didn't it? There is a slight trick putting it back together.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-10-2018, 08:00 PM	#26
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	O: The deep cuts near the top of the firing pin in the photo are what we refer to as fluting. I believe that this was a later addition to Lugers so in the event of a pierced primer the sudden infusion of hot gasses would have an escape path to bleed off thru rather than forcing the entire firing pin toward the rear. Certainly a well-marked gun and you have done a good job on the photos. dju

11-10-2018, 10:26 PM	#28
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	Thank you Jerry! Don did help me with some contact info. The first email address came back undeliverable (I was crushed!). Don had another email address, so I resent but we haven't had a response yet. I'll definitely post an update if I hear from him. The wooden based mags are what would have been made for the piece back in 1918, right? When would the aluminum ones have been added, when it went into police service? But that wooden base has the police unit marking, so I'm confused. Do you ever find a piece that has matching wood and aluminum mags? Anything unusual or special I also about any of the other markings? Thank you for being patient with all my questions! Diane

11-10-2018, 10:51 PM	#29
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	If the wood based mag was servicable, it would have add the markings added upon entering police service, the aluminum base dates to around 1930, and may have been added at the time of the addition of the sear safety. Thanks for the picture of the left side, but the area of the frame at the top of the grip is too dark to see much. I'm looking for about a 5/16" hole above the trigger but under the side plate, where part of the magazine safety would have intruded into the mag well. In the first picture, you can see the hole, but the mag safety is removed; the other three(a different pistol) show the magazine safety in place and with the grip in place also. The mag safety did not work really well, and they were ordered removed or incapacitated in 1936-7. An intact safety is rare, some were removed completely, some only partially. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

11-10-2018, 11:00 PM	#30
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	Whew, I think this is the shot you're looking for? Attached Thumbnails

11-10-2018, 11:06 PM	#32
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Diane, yes to both your questions. The wooden based mags are what would have been made for the piece back in 1918, right? Correct. Originally this pistol came with two wood based magazines numbered to it. Don is correct. Often these are found in Police service with both types, wood & aluminum. During the Weimar era money was tight and nothing was wasted. Good that you have a line on your missing magazine..If you get no response you may want to publish the name of the last known owner. It could be that a Member here is familiar with the gentleman and his current contact information. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-10-2018, 11:13 PM	#33
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	So since there is no hole, this piece never had a mag safety installed? Attached Thumbnails

11-10-2018, 11:22 PM	#34
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Exactly __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-11-2018, 06:29 PM	#36
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Well there you go. Charles is alive and well and I have had very recent communication with him. He is a good man. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-11-2018, 10:57 PM	#38
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	Oh my! I haven't received an answer from the email I sent, but I would really like to speak with him! Jerry, could you let him know I'm trying to reach him? I purposely didn't include any links or pics in my email so it wouldn't get sent to his junk folder, but maybe it did anyway? This has been such a needed distraction. My son deploys very soon to the sandbox, and I handle such things much better when I'm busy. I think that's why my husband had me conduct this research. He's perfectly capable, but he is a master strategist! So, if anyone out there knows how I can reach Mr Wagner, I would appreciate any information or assistance! Thank you, Diane

11-11-2018, 11:00 PM	#39
OBXmom User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 20 Thanks: 24 Thanked 34 Times in 14 Posts	I forgot to mention. My email is [email protected] Thank you!

11-11-2018, 11:37 PM	#40
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Diane, I contacted Charles..hopefully he will respond to this thread, or you. Let me know! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."