New Luger. Can someone help tell me what I found?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Don is likely more right than I am. It is actually very difficult to "drive" in a pin this small. Yes, it must be fairly tight so as not to fly out but a matter of semantics. A lot of small pins on Luger pistols are push in push out. " I am a metal worker and have a metal working shop in my garage." I actually went to gunsmithing school in the early 70's. One has to be careful in any choice of words on how to explain but since you are a metal worker you know. I think my main concern is that a non metal worker did not go about trying to Drive in an oversized mashed up pin!

[Iannn]

I am not seeing any proofs inside the chamber. It does not mean they are not there though......

[ithacaartist]

Sometimes this pin is not visible with an angled pic, whereas the pin is there, its end submerged beyond flush with the toggle's surface. With the action held open, you'd be able to spot the tail of the pin if it's there--sticking down enough to retain the axle pin-- through the hole in the center of the left knob. Looking down into the top hole, it should also be visible if extant. The latter way is the fastest, but the presence of a pin alone doesn't necessarily confirm that it's doing its job down below. Without the retaining pin, one can push the axle our easily. If the axle is mobile along its axis, the pin is indeed broken or completely missing.

[Iannn]

Yeah the pin is for certain just not in there. I can see all the way through the hole and the axle pin just slides out. I did the nail trick. It goes in and out pretty easy. I did not do anything that would have damaged the hole. But I would still like to find the correct pin.

[ithacaartist]

The incremental differences in diameters of wire gauge drill bits can come in handy. A piece of a bit's shank is handy for replacing this sort of pin with virtually an exact match. Then just replace the single bit used from the set.

[DonVoigt]

The proof marks are on the outside of the chamber, on the left flat in the case of the commercial pistols, and the right for military.

The "N" in the well indicates a DWM frame, and the rear picture shows a later frame, post 1914 or so. The lug has been removed by grinding or similar method and is "flatter" than a frame that never had a lug.

The serial number on the front is likely original and confirms a mid to late 1920 commercial mfg luger.

JMHO.

The small retaining pin:
PM "lugerdoc" on this board, he may have an original pin- but there is nothing magic about it- any pin that is a "snug" or "easy drive" fit is fine.
Just use a larger diameter nail, or turn a pin.

[Iannn]

Ok I think I found the proof marks on the barrel. Kinda hard to see with the naked eye but zoomed in with the camera they are there. Also not sure if anyone mentioned why the barrel and the slide are marked with one set of numbers and the other stuff is something else?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Iannn

Ok I think I found the proof marks on the barrel. Kinda hard to see with the naked eye but zoomed in with the camera they are there. Also not sure if anyone mentioned why the barrel and the slide are marked with one set of numbers and the other stuff is something else?

That is the receiver, not the barrel; the marks are workers marks.
The receiver is a DWM receiver.

The barrel and receiver were likely numbered at the time they were "mated", it is not factory work- but happened at the time of barrel replacement.

[Iannn]

You are very right. I was getting confused where the barrel ends and the receiver starts. But I cannot see any markings on the barrel besides the "295" that is very easy to see. But I appreciate the help. If I remember 1920 DWM Commercial that will be good.

[Kyrie]

This Luger, and its numbered but unrelated barrel, reminds me of a Commercial I had some years ago. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves:

http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyr...20Luger?sort=9

[Iannn]

Kyrie did you ever find out why our barrels are like this? Assuming the same thing happened to yours that happened to mine.......

Besides the Treaty of Versailles theory which is apparently suspect I have not seen any other reason.

[lugerholsterrepair]

From the looks of one of your photo's it appears to me the stock lug has been ground off. 3rd photo in post #22.

[Iannn]

Yeah the lug is for sure not there. I read some never came with them and some were ground off. From what people have said here due to how flat the back of mine is it was probably ground off. They did a decent job of making it look like it never had one at least.

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Weren't there US dealers selling re-barreled Lugers of various lengths by catalog in the USA in this time frame?

Yes sir, that was so. Especially noted for long barreled (up to 24 inches) Lugers was PAC (Pacific Arms Company).

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Iannn

Kyrie did you ever find out why our barrels are like this? Assuming the same thing happened to yours that happened to mine.......

Besides the Treaty of Versailles theory which is apparently suspect I have not seen any other reason.

The numbers are really not a mystery or of special interest, they were put there by the guy/shop/rebuilder that re-barreled your luger.

"He" did it to ID the pieces for re-assembly; quite likely the barrel was fitted, chambered and head spaced and then removed so just the barrel could be blued, then re-installed.

The barrel shows a "better" finish with less wear, loo at the bottom where you took the picture- you can see the nice blue on the barrel and less blue on the receiver.

[Iannn]

Interesting. Any idea why it would need a new barrel? Shot out or rusted maybe? They did not often change these from 9mm to .30 did they? And I have a toggle retaining pin on the way and ordered a couple boxes of ammo. I could not find any rounds locally sad to say.

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by Iannn

Kyrie did you ever find out why our barrels are like this? Assuming the same thing happened to yours that happened to mine.......

--- snip ---

No sir, and I frankly doubt we ever will. Purely in my opinion...

The 1920s were a chaotic time in Germany. The German economy was trashed and largely non-functional. Hyper-inflation made German currency valueless within days of issue. The naval blockade of Germany by the allies continued into the late 1920s. Something like two-fifths of the children born in Germany in the early 1920s would die from starvation or disease related to malnutrition before the late 1920s. Entire cities revolted against what passed for the central government and declared themselves communist, and these revolts were bloodily suppressed (frequently by para-military forces armed with heavy weapons left over from the Great War).

This was the environment from within which our two Lugers emerged. DWM and God alone knows how many gun shops (large and small) refurbished Great War Lugers for export, mostly to the United States. Laws, including proof laws, were obeyed or ignored according to individual sense of necessity.

This produced a large number of Lugers that old time collectors (like yours truly) lumped together under the rubric “1920 Commercial.” Jan Still originated a new system of nomenclature that provided context for some of the “1920 Commercial” Lugers (e.g. Alphabet DWM, etc.) and Still’s nomenclature has come into general use among very many present day collectors.

But Still’s nomenclature leaves an indigestible lump of Luger variations for which we still lack explanation or context. Your Luger and the one of which I just shared photos are a part of that indigestible lump. Everybody has at least one opinion about each gun, but historical records that would support those opinions are absent.

These are just mystery guns, created by someone, for some reason, in some country. Here is another one:

http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyr...mercial?sort=9

This one started out as a 9 mm DWM military Luger, chamber date 1917. It now has a ten inch barrel and is chambered for the 7.65 Parabellum cartridge. Barrel is not proofed, marked only with the number “124.” That number matches the last three digits of the Luger on which it is installed, but is not of the military or commercial placement or form.

I still refer to such Lugers as 1920 Commercial variants. That practice has been known to anger some of the younger Luger collectors, but so far I have not been visited by the Nomenclature Police :-)

[HerrKaiser]

Building on Kyrie’s last answer, the nomenclature sometimes also classifies my commercial as a “1923” commercial since it has a 5 digit SN (80395), despite it having likely been made in 1920-21 or so. Somewhere in the 85000 range they switched to the “alphabet” system (or 1920) commercials such as yours. Try making sense of that...
Me personally, I call the ones like mine “1920 commercials” and the ones like yours “alphabet” commercials for clarity.

[John Sabato]

As you can see in the blueprint extract below, the size of the hole for the toggle retainer pin is 1.5MM (-0.05mm tolerance). The length of the pin is described at 7.2mm. The pin is not tapered.

The full set of Luger blueprints is available from me. ($25.00) in very clear digital image formats.
PM me if you are interested.