Fake 1916 Navy on Gunbroker! - Page 2

CptCurl · 08-20-2020, 06:06 PM

Ok, I don't mind putting my ignorance on display, so I'll ask the question I'm thinking.

There is a strong consensus that the gun is fake. If the C/N stamps are fake, and I certainly agree that they look very fishy, then that blows my theory that the gun is a 1920 Navy Commercial.

So, taking that to be true, my question is: What the heck was this forger trying to emulate? What did he start with, and what was his ending goal?

A counterfeiter doesn't print out a batch of $3.00 bills.

Ron, thanks for the 1/2 point!

Curl

Yakman · 08-20-2020, 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=Dwight Gruber;332991]Being late to the game, I will only point out that the c/Ns are fake.

Dwight, your assertion doesn't mean much without an elaboration. Would you provide more detail please?

Jack

Dwight Gruber · 08-21-2020, 02:45 AM

The serifs on the N show it to be upside down; the crown is too precise and too finely detailed; the crown is too far away from the N; the proportions of the stamp seem subtly wrong and it seems to be too large. This last is an intuitive impression and can only be confirmed by direct comparative measurement.

--Dwight

Yakman · 08-21-2020, 12:34 PM

Thanks, Dwight.

The only thing I would say in reference to the backward appearing "N" is all the examples I have seen over the years, along with one's I have, and I have a few, have always appeared backward to me, and this goes back years. The main reason is, it appears to me that the left, or leading, "leg" of the "N" is the thinner, but should follow instead of leading, what I see as the thicker right "leg".

So to me the gun gets this part correct. For the rest, I'll defer to you. However, I can't see a Faker observant enough to get the backward "N" correct, (have to make the die, even) and then put it on a gun that in my opinion would be more valuable without it.

Now, this is just my observation from a first glance, and on which I am not adamant. Anyone can take it apart and I would like to see some do that. Maybe I can learn something.

Jack

Dwight Gruber · 08-21-2020, 01:27 PM

I didn't say backward, I said upside-down. The issue is not the thickness of the legs, but the position and direction of the letter serifs. Thickness difference in stamping can be attributed to uneven positioning of the stempel during the stamping stroke.

SPECULATION: the marking under discussion is the result of two different stamps, the N being held in the wrong orientation and the crown being a separate, more finely detailed stempel.

Fakers are very often...well, I want to say stupid, but let's just go with ignorant, or just unobservant. This is the characteristic which allows us to catch them out.

--Dwight

Yakman · 08-21-2020, 01:52 PM

Ok Dwight,

Spending a little more time with Norme's posted GB photos, some examples I have, and your explanation I can see what you are talking about. I wish it was not whited in, but I can see how you come to your conclusion. I don't know about being so emphatic about it, though.

I'm skeptical.

Jack

Ron Wood · 08-21-2020, 06:38 PM

Not to put too fine a point on it, but technically the "N" of the Crown/N impression is not upside down...it is a mirror image. That is what happens when you hold the stamp upside down to apply it.

Ron

Dwight Gruber · 08-21-2020, 08:12 PM

Thank you Ron.

--Dwight

spangy · 10-02-2020, 07:06 AM

For any of you wondering how fakers 'mark' their imposters.

https://www.waffenamt-shop.com/en/6-...eriod-to-1945-

I certainly DO NOT condone the use of these dies to deface any historical firearm or any other thing.
It's a sad world we live in so know the enemy

Ron Wood · 10-14-2020, 02:16 AM

I goofed. Rich (Sheepherder) pointed out to me that my illustrations and text were somewhat in error. I was correct that the "N" stamp on the gun was the result of rotating the stamp 180 degrees so that the resultant stamp is upside down, therefore the left example is a correct representation of an inverted stamp, but not a mirror image (scratch out "mirror image" in the text and example image

).
Here is what a mirror image would look like (and it isn't what is on the gun).
Ron

sheepherder · 10-14-2020, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I goofed...my illustrations and text were somewhat in error.

Aw man! Now everybody knows!

Ron Wood · 10-14-2020, 06:40 PM

No, that is apples and oranges. The first illustration in my original post "Rotated 180 degrees" is the correct illustration, it just should not have had the additional "(Mirror Image)" notation because it isn't a mirror image. The correct orientation of the "N"should be with the two serifs on the left vertical stroke and a single serif on the right vertical stroke. Since the stamping tool was rotated 180 degrees (stamp held upside down) when the impression was made on the subject Luger receiver, the N on the receiver as shown has the two serifs on the right vertical stroke, therefore incorrect.
Ron

sheepherder · 10-14-2020, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

No, that is apples and oranges. The first illustration in my original post "Rotated 180 degrees" is the correct illustration, it just should not have had the additional "(Mirror Image)" notation because it isn't a mirror image.

OK, I deleted my incorrect pic.

Heinz · 10-15-2020, 04:50 PM

Nicely explained Ron.

08-20-2020, 09:11 PM	#22
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Fake 1916 Navy [QUOTE=Dwight Gruber;332991]Being late to the game, I will only point out that the c/Ns are fake. Dwight, your assertion doesn't mean much without an elaboration. Would you provide more detail please? Jack

08-21-2020, 06:38 PM	#27
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Not to put too fine a point on it, but technically the "N" of the Crown/N impression is not upside down...it is a mirror image. That is what happens when you hold the stamp upside down to apply it. Ron Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2020, 07:06 AM	#29
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	For any of you wondering how fakers 'mark' their imposters. https://www.waffenamt-shop.com/en/6-...eriod-to-1945- I certainly DO NOT condone the use of these dies to deface any historical firearm or any other thing. It's a sad world we live in so know the enemy Last edited by spangy; 10-02-2020 at 08:09 AM.

10-14-2020, 02:16 AM	#30
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I goofed. Rich (Sheepherder) pointed out to me that my illustrations and text were somewhat in error. I was correct that the "N" stamp on the gun was the result of rotating the stamp 180 degrees so that the resultant stamp is upside down, therefore the left example is a correct representation of an inverted stamp, but not a mirror image (scratch out "mirror image" in the text and example image ). Here is what a mirror image would look like (and it isn't what is on the gun). Ron Attached Images __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-14-2020, 06:40 PM	#32
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	No, that is apples and oranges. The first illustration in my original post "Rotated 180 degrees" is the correct illustration, it just should not have had the additional "(Mirror Image)" notation because it isn't a mirror image. The correct orientation of the "N"should be with the two serifs on the left vertical stroke and a single serif on the right vertical stroke. Since the stamping tool was rotated 180 degrees (stamp held upside down) when the impression was made on the subject Luger receiver, the N on the receiver as shown has the two serifs on the right vertical stroke, therefore incorrect. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-20-2020, 06:06 PM	#21
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	Ok, I don't mind putting my ignorance on display, so I'll ask the question I'm thinking. There is a strong consensus that the gun is fake. If the C/N stamps are fake, and I certainly agree that they look very fishy, then that blows my theory that the gun is a 1920 Navy Commercial. So, taking that to be true, my question is: What the heck was this forger trying to emulate? What did he start with, and what was his ending goal? A counterfeiter doesn't print out a batch of $3.00 bills. Ron, thanks for the 1/2 point! Curl

08-21-2020, 02:45 AM	#23
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	The serifs on the N show it to be upside down; the crown is too precise and too finely detailed; the crown is too far away from the N; the proportions of the stamp seem subtly wrong and it seems to be too large. This last is an intuitive impression and can only be confirmed by direct comparative measurement. --Dwight

08-21-2020, 12:34 PM	#24
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Thanks, Dwight. The only thing I would say in reference to the backward appearing "N" is all the examples I have seen over the years, along with one's I have, and I have a few, have always appeared backward to me, and this goes back years. The main reason is, it appears to me that the left, or leading, "leg" of the "N" is the thinner, but should follow instead of leading, what I see as the thicker right "leg". So to me the gun gets this part correct. For the rest, I'll defer to you. However, I can't see a Faker observant enough to get the backward "N" correct, (have to make the die, even) and then put it on a gun that in my opinion would be more valuable without it. Now, this is just my observation from a first glance, and on which I am not adamant. Anyone can take it apart and I would like to see some do that. Maybe I can learn something. Jack

08-21-2020, 01:27 PM	#25
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	I didn't say backward, I said upside-down. The issue is not the thickness of the legs, but the position and direction of the letter serifs. Thickness difference in stamping can be attributed to uneven positioning of the stempel during the stamping stroke. SPECULATION: the marking under discussion is the result of two different stamps, the N being held in the wrong orientation and the crown being a separate, more finely detailed stempel. Fakers are very often...well, I want to say stupid, but let's just go with ignorant, or just unobservant. This is the characteristic which allows us to catch them out. --Dwight

08-21-2020, 01:52 PM	#26
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Ok Dwight, Spending a little more time with Norme's posted GB photos, some examples I have, and your explanation I can see what you are talking about. I wish it was not whited in, but I can see how you come to your conclusion. I don't know about being so emphatic about it, though. I'm skeptical. Jack

08-21-2020, 08:12 PM	#28
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Thank you Ron. --Dwight

10-15-2020, 04:50 PM	#34
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Nicely explained Ron.