Toggle sticking open - Page 2

Military Engineer · 09-06-2021, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Mark, it will be interesting to know what is causing the issue? BTW, I have a ton of toggle train parts should you need something to replace or even a part just to try... let us know... best, til...lat'r....GT

Actually...can I take you up on that offer? Be interesting to see if a different toggle train would make a difference. If it does, I can mic both of them and see just how much I need to modify mine BEFORE I start doing it. I'll send a PM.

Mark

G.T. · 09-06-2021, 05:25 PM

For testing purposes, remove the hold open all together! It is not needed for any primary function?... best, GT

Military Engineer · 09-06-2021, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

For testing purposes, remove the hold open all together! It is not needed for any primary function?... best, GT

I did already. When I was at the range, I removed it. Problem did not change one iota.

Military Engineer · 09-06-2021, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Swap out the L-shaped holdopen and see if it helps.

I did. There was no change. This was one of the first items I checked when the problem became rampant.

In case I never mentioned it, with no magazine installed in the pistol, I can pull the toggle back as if I'm cycling a round for shooting and the toggle will stick back. Just a thumb tap and it goes forward as normal. Does it with or without the hold open, so I know that isn't it. The problem is relatively recent, too, which is why I'm ordering new springs.

For anyone reading: I am ordering the multipack from Wolff, with the 36, 38, and 40# springs. Which is the one that is standard issue? It says 38# is the standard, but I figuered the more knowledgable here would know.

G.T. · 09-06-2021, 11:27 PM

Hi Mark, I have seen, only once, where the ejector was hanging up on the corresponding groove in the breechblock, It wasn't locked all the way back, but was stuck pretty tightly most of the way back? remove the ejector and see if it affects the outcome?... best, GT

Proofed · 09-07-2021, 09:43 AM

could the mainspring be broken ?

G.T. · 09-07-2021, 11:59 AM

Something that could be the culprit that i haven't seen mentioned is the barrel flange could be interfering with the frame on the bottom of the chamber area in the front of the pistol? This is more likely to happen than one might think? It is very close tolerance and can be checked for very easily... best, til...lat'r....GT...

BTW, this is also the area that receives the most deformation during re-barreling and it could be a result of that type of operation?...
BTW squared, remember what I recently said about the cure being as far away from the problem as you can get! This could be one of those!!!

Vlim · 09-07-2021, 12:12 PM

With most likely candidates ruled out, how about the S-shaped connecting hook being bent out of shape?

Military Engineer · 09-08-2021, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Mark, I have seen, only once, where the ejector was hanging up on the corresponding groove in the breechblock, It wasn't locked all the way back, but was stuck pretty tightly most of the way back? remove the ejector and see if it affects the outcome?... best, GT

An interesting idea. Never considered it, figuring there was no way a part that small could do that. I will check that as well.

Military Engineer · 09-08-2021, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Something that could be the culprit that i haven't seen mentioned is the barrel flange could be interfering with the frame on the bottom of the chamber area in the front of the pistol? This is more likely to happen than one might think? It is very close tolerance and can be checked for very easily... best, til...lat'r....GT...

BTW, this is also the area that receives the most deformation during re-barreling and it could be a result of that type of operation?...
BTW squared, remember what I recently said about the cure being as far away from the problem as you can get! This could be one of those!!!

Possibly. That would seem to be related to fork misalignment, so I'll recheck that.

Military Engineer · 09-08-2021, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proofed

could the mainspring be broken ?

No, but there are a number of people who are thinking that despite the age, the main spring may be weak and need replacement.

One thing, as I think about this, is that I haven't considered that the mainspring that was supposedly replaced could have been replaced with a weaker one than original. That could be why it looks new but is potentially failing. It is one explanation that would fit the circumstances. The exact same thing happened several years ago on my P226 when I replaced it with a spring that was 30% lighter than the original. It lasted a couple of years and one day, all of a sudden, stopped striking primers hard enough to ignite. So I'm going to wait and see when I get new springs.

There still feels like some sort of interference in the pulling of the toggle, so that has to be considered.

gunbugs · 09-08-2021, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

With most likely candidates ruled out, how about the S-shaped connecting hook being bent out of shape?

Pointed that out in post 11. Folks seem to think it's the mainspring. What do I know?

mrerick · 09-08-2021, 10:37 AM

The Luger action is finely balanced. There were a range of recoil springs used in the different models and eras of Lugers. The forum FAQ document has a copy of the table.

Recoil springs came in different wire thicknesses with different numbers of coils.

If you remove the recoil spring, you can manually operate the action and feel if it is binding at different points in it's cycle, and especially toward the end of it's movement. If there is no binding of any kind, look to the possibility of wear or deformation changing the geometry of the hooks or s link in the recoil spring linkage. Also check for wear of the frame where the axel pin rides.

Removal and installation of the recoil spring is a fairly specialized job. It takes a properly designed tool to actually do it without damaging the gun or yourself. Use great care... it's under fair compression.

Our FAQ is free and can be downloaded by following the FAQ link on every forum page.

Vlim · 09-08-2021, 12:42 PM

I would not expect a weak or strong mainspring to keep the toggle locked back. That's why I'm considering the linking mechanism (s-hook and lever) as most other causes have been ruled out.

But remote diagnosis is difficult.

G.T. · 09-08-2021, 02:59 PM

Hi Mark, in my previous post I mentioned that the receiver might be touching on the front of the frame, actually it occurs when the "New" barrels flange is a few thousands larger dia. then the receiver, and it can then drag or stick on the frame relief area?... best, GT

Military Engineer · 09-08-2021, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

I would not expect a weak or strong mainspring to keep the toggle locked back. That's why I'm considering the linking mechanism (s-hook and lever) as most other causes have been ruled out.

But remote diagnosis is difficult.

I will need to check the blue prints I have, but in the event it does not have it, do you have the exact dimensions of the toggle link ("S" link)?

G.T. · 09-09-2021, 12:34 AM

Hi Mark, I've included an "S" coupling link in with what i sent you... should arrive soon... best, til...lat'r...GT

4 Scale · 09-10-2021, 10:01 AM

Could you describe "the toggle sticks in the open bolt position" a little better? If by this description you mean the toggle only partially closes (does not fully return to battery), I have had this issue before on a couple shooters. I traced the problem to a defective extractor on one. On the other, the culprit was too-weak ammo.

Heinz · 09-10-2021, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Could you describe "the toggle sticks in the open bolt position" a little better? If by this description you mean the toggle only partially closes (does not fully return to battery), I have had this issue before on a couple shooters. I traced the problem to a defective extractor on one. On the other, the culprit was too-weak ammo.

See post 13. It sticks in the fully open position

4 Scale · 09-11-2021, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinz

See post 13. It sticks in the fully open position

I did see that post, thank you. I also read post #23, that reports that with the hold open removed it 'stays the same'. A Luger that locks open with no hold-open I find astounding. I feel I have at least a working knowledge of Luger operation and can think of no scenario that would permit a Luger to lock open with no hold open present. Hence my request for a description of what exactly "sticks open" means.

I can't lose by asking this question. If the OP advises that indeed the pistol is locking open with no hold open in the gun, I will have learned something. If he advises the toggle is doing something short of locking open, we will have valuable clarification and be able to better assist.

09-06-2021, 05:25 PM	#22
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	remove hold open For testing purposes, remove the hold open all together! It is not needed for any primary function?... best, GT

09-06-2021, 11:27 PM	#25
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	very rarely... Hi Mark, I have seen, only once, where the ejector was hanging up on the corresponding groove in the breechblock, It wasn't locked all the way back, but was stuck pretty tightly most of the way back? remove the ejector and see if it affects the outcome?... best, GT

09-07-2021, 09:43 AM	#26
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	mainspring could the mainspring be broken ?

09-07-2021, 11:59 AM	#27
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Just thought of it! Something that could be the culprit that i haven't seen mentioned is the barrel flange could be interfering with the frame on the bottom of the chamber area in the front of the pistol? This is more likely to happen than one might think? It is very close tolerance and can be checked for very easily... best, til...lat'r....GT... BTW, this is also the area that receives the most deformation during re-barreling and it could be a result of that type of operation?... BTW squared, remember what I recently said about the cure being as far away from the problem as you can get! This could be one of those!!!

09-08-2021, 10:37 AM	#33
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The Luger action is finely balanced. There were a range of recoil springs used in the different models and eras of Lugers. The forum FAQ document has a copy of the table. Recoil springs came in different wire thicknesses with different numbers of coils. If you remove the recoil spring, you can manually operate the action and feel if it is binding at different points in it's cycle, and especially toward the end of it's movement. If there is no binding of any kind, look to the possibility of wear or deformation changing the geometry of the hooks or s link in the recoil spring linkage. Also check for wear of the frame where the axel pin rides. Removal and installation of the recoil spring is a fairly specialized job. It takes a properly designed tool to actually do it without damaging the gun or yourself. Use great care... it's under fair compression. Our FAQ is free and can be downloaded by following the FAQ link on every forum page. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-07-2021, 12:12 PM	#28
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	With most likely candidates ruled out, how about the S-shaped connecting hook being bent out of shape?

09-08-2021, 12:42 PM	#34
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	I would not expect a weak or strong mainspring to keep the toggle locked back. That's why I'm considering the linking mechanism (s-hook and lever) as most other causes have been ruled out. But remote diagnosis is difficult.

09-08-2021, 02:59 PM	#35
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	re-barrel issue Hi Mark, in my previous post I mentioned that the receiver might be touching on the front of the frame, actually it occurs when the "New" barrels flange is a few thousands larger dia. then the receiver, and it can then drag or stick on the frame relief area?... best, GT

09-09-2021, 12:34 AM	#37
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	one coming Hi Mark, I've included an "S" coupling link in with what i sent you... should arrive soon... best, til...lat'r...GT

09-10-2021, 10:01 AM	#38
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Could you describe "the toggle sticks in the open bolt position" a little better? If by this description you mean the toggle only partially closes (does not fully return to battery), I have had this issue before on a couple shooters. I traced the problem to a defective extractor on one. On the other, the culprit was too-weak ammo.