An interesting KU Luger

[crgkstnr]

Hi Craig!

"Whatever the marking is, it isn’t an VoPo sunburst. Here’s what that looks like."

Greetings Kyrie,
I don't think my post was clear. I meant what might be the E German sunburst stamps were defaced by punching them with something like a blunt center punch.

I can't think of any pre-1946 stamp which would be where the punch marks are on my (left of rec. serial) or Hughs pistol.

Thanks for posting that sunburst stamping.

I wonder if any forum member has a luger with intact E. German stamps? Where were these stamps usually placed on a luger?

Craig

[Edward Tinker]

What is the guess of why the east german marks were defaced? And who did it, importers, exporter or the gov't after the east fell?

[Hugh]

crgkstnr, I believe you are right. According to John Walter in THE LUGER BOOK, the distinctive features of the VOPO Lugers "are the distinctive matt blue finish, the dark plastic grips with concentric circle mark and new magazines marked 2/1001"

My gun has all of the above features. I just examined the mark under a good light and 15x glass and can see the very ends of two of the sunburst rays at the bottom of the punch marks. Could it be that the Germans defaced the mark before releasing the guns to the public?
[img]confused.gif[/img]

[crgkstnr]

OK, now it's a wild guess.
Maybe as more modern pistols became available to the E. Germans they pulled the lugers out of service in the mid 50's defaced the police stamps and refinished the pistols and put them into storage for future use by themselves, or for sale to other communist countries. What do you think?

[Marvin]

Hugh,

The odd looking punch marks are the defacing of a Communist E. German stamp. When the pistols first started to be released, the US could not accept any shipments of firearms which had Commie stamps, so, the best way was to deface the stamps and they could be sold to the US dealers.

Most of the pistols probably came thru a large German wholesale dealer before being purchased by the distributor in the US. This is a nice find!!

Marvin

[Hugh]

Thanks, Marvin. It looks like I've got a genuine Ku/VOPO Luger. Since I probably couldn't afford an original condition Ku, I am happy with this find, especially at that price!.
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[max2cam]

The VOPO "sunburst" stamp on my 1938 Luger survived because it's hidden behind the take-down lever. I was wondering what it referred to.

Is it a property stamp to any particular district or unit or just a generic Volks Polizi acceptance stamp?

[Doubs]

One of my E. German reworks has the marks stamped on the front of the frame between the serial number and the suffix letter! There are three distinct marks including a small sunburst with the number five in it and a circle-X. I'll have to check the other one to see what all it has. I can tell you that it has the number "16" on the front left receiver wall and the same number on the frame exactly where the punch marks appear on the KU Luger. The 16 may be an assembly number because it's not part of the serial number. I'll try to take a few pictures later.

[Orv Reichert]

Many P38's were imported into the US indirectly from the 'comblock' in order to hide the fact that they were from a 'proscribed' country. Often, any VOPO or similar marks were struck with a round headed punch to solve that problem.

I am told they were shipped to Austria or Switzerland and then to the US with doc's that certified that they did not come from a 'bad' country.

I am sure this applied to the P08, as well?

Orv Reichert

[Marvin]

Orv,

Thanks for the info on the pistols coming thru Austria or Switzerland! I thought they may have come thru one of the big German dealers. Anyway, at least they came here for us Luger collectors.

Marvin

[Orv Reichert]

They may have been shipped to Germany with the original source indicated as Switzerland or Austria...sneaky, eh?

Orv

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Folks,

Any comments that this 1938 byf reworked luger is really a 1938 byf; or did a 1938 Mauser pistol get an another toggle assembly added at some point in time ?

Just trying to understand Hugh's original post...

[John Sabato]

Response to your request for comment is No.
Answer to your question is Yes.

"byf" wasn't a code being used in 1938... I am fairly certain that code started being used in 1941.

[Kyrie]

[quote]Originally posted by crgkstnr:
<strong>Greetings Kyrie,
I don't think my post was clear. I meant what might be the E German sunburst stamps were defaced by punching them with something like a blunt center punch.
[snip]
I wonder if any forum member has a luger with intact E. German stamps? Where were these stamps usually placed on a luger?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Craig!

Ah! I understand better - sorry I was dense ;-(

There doesnâ??t seem to have been any rhyme or reason to the location of the VoPo stamps - they occur wherever there was room for them. They are usually found somewhere near the frame serial number, but there are exceptions.

According to Dieter Marschall in his wonderful â??Walther Pistols Models 1 Through P99â?? the stamp (albeit obliterated on your Luger) is a sunburst enclosing a shield that encloses the number of the administrative district. These administrative district were:

1 Rostock
2 Schwerin
3 Neubrandenburg
4 Potsdam
5 Frankfurt/Order
6 Cottbus
7 Magdeburg
8 Halle
9 Gera
10 Suhl
11 Dresden
12 Liepzig
14 Karl Marx Stadt (Chemnitz)
15 Berlin
16 Wismut

Warm regards,

Kyrie

[max2cam]

After Kyrie posted the VOPO Administrative District listing, I had to run and get my Luger again. This VOPO stamp is under the sideplace on the frame behind the takedown lever (when in closed position).

Mine reads "3" which according to this list is Neubrandenburg.

Now to get a map of Germany out.....

Thanks Kyrie.

Funny, but while my gun is VoPo marked, it did not come with "bullseye" grips (rather it had two different style of plastic grips -- one had shreds of holster leather between the diamonds).

As to finish, I'm not sure if it's "dipped" blue or not. The box (AIM) said "original finish" and I do notice that the barrel (new Crown N replacement) has fresher bluer blue than the frame, which has some very light pitting in spots with worn off spots on the sideplace, grip area of the frame, etc.

So some of these VoPo marked guns came thru without bullseye grips and showing some holster wear.

Mine is mismatched and has a S/42 "Gothic S" (1935 K-date?) toggle.

I know it's a hunk of junk to you guys, but I like it....

[Aaron]

Why the concdrted effort to deface Vopo marks on Lugers when virtually all of the Vopo marks on P38s were left intact? Incidentally, Dieter's book seems to be a bit behind in the numbering of Vopo marks. There are many more than 16. My P38 has a Vopo 27 mark.

[Orv Reichert]

I think the 'defacing' took place prior to 1968 to hide the 'combloc' source.

From 1968 to early 1980's no one could import ANY military weapons thanks to the 1968 GCA.

In the early 1980's, a sneaky change was added to another bill [tacked on] which said that 'surplus military weapons may be imported by a licensed importer if the weapon is classified as a Curio, Relic, or Antique. This is what opened the flood gates, again!

The defacing was not necessary if the guns could be proved to have been in another country for 5 years.

Orv Reichert

[Hugh]

Originally posted by Pete: Any comments that this 1938 byf reworked luger is really a 1938 byf; or did a 1938 Mauser pistol get an another toggle assembly added at some point in time ?

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
Pete,according to presently accepted theories, Ku Lugers were "made up of Mauser parts and assembled and finished by Krieghoff for distribution to the Luftwaffe". So I would assume that any combination of Mauser parts would be possible. As the parts used were supposedly of substandard or "mis-sized" they probably used whatever had been rejected and thrown in the parts bin.

I have examined the numbers on this gun closely and found; the frame, receiver, sideplate, and middle toggle link are all stamped with the same number dies. The take down lever, both safety levers, extractor and trigger have the same style numbers but they are slightly smaller and are from the same dies. The rear toggle has been restamped with a slightly larger but similar style die. The breech block does not have a number, but has the same acceptance mark as the bbl and reciever. The firing pin, rear toggle pin and sear bar have the SN electroetched on them. The holdopen is not numbered. There is a "K" stamp in the TD lever well of the frame. The dies used to number the magazine are different than the ones on the gun.

The S/42 or 42 Mauser replacement part stamp is commonly found on Ku guns. This one has an S/42 on the left of the reciever in front of the SN. I believe that this is a genuine Ku gun assembled by Krieghoff of Mauser parts which consisted of a 1938 reciever and a byf toggle. During refinishing by the East Germans, some parts, namely the sear bar, firing pin, holdopen, rear toggle pin, & magazine were replaced. I believe that the rear toggle link is original, but had to be restamped when the number was removed during refinishing. This assumption is based on the fact that both the rear toggle link and the middle toggle link have a fairly uncommon stylized "R" within a "W" quality control inspectors stamp found on 1938 thru 1941 guns. (Costanzo, p219, #222).

Those that disagree with me are welcome to present their arguments. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Orv Reichert]

Did you note the S/42 code on the left side of the slide? This is correct for parts produced for use as replacement parts and not to be assembled to a new gun.

We run into that on a lot of major P38 parts. The 'late ac frame' and un-numbered barrels all have the code and WaA stamped on them. and were in the parts inventory.

I would bet the slide was secured from 'parts'

Orv Reichert

[Hugh]

ORV,

According to Still & Gibson as quoted in my earlier post, most Ku Lugers have at least one part stamped either S/42 or 42.