42/1939s....Is this a coincidence? - Page 2

Frank · 07-29-2002, 03:15 PM

OK RK, I'll Catch!! What is that old phrase? Not only no, but HELL no! But then, that's just my opinion! To me mint implys just the way it left the factory, with no wear. I have seen very few Lugers with no wear, but they do exist. Even "near mint" still implys all matching, to me!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

MauserLugers · 07-29-2002, 05:22 PM

Rember guys, do your research! Each manufacture is different and each time frame is different. For instance, DWM and Erfurt are different than Mauser on the rear connecting pins being numbered. Imperial Lugers were NOT originally numbered. Mauser military variations were ALL numbered. You can not lump all Lugers together and just make a general conclusion. Same with the grip screws and ect. -- Bill

Johnny Peppers · 07-29-2002, 05:48 PM

Never pay all matching price for something that is all matching...except. The more excepts, the lower the price and the lower the demand when you get ready to sell it.

Jimbo · 07-29-2002, 11:28 PM

Hello Bill Munis,

You know, maybe I made a mistake and this gun is not all original. The extractor and toggle rear axle are not stamped. But there are so many unexpected Luger variations out there such as the out-of-sequence 1940 s/42 and the 42-42, that while the blank extractor and axle seemed improbable, they did not seem impossible.

First, does anyone else own a 1939 Mauser from the late transition "r" block for comparison?

Second Bill, can you cite an authoritative source that no Mauser Luger ever left the factory with a blank toggle rear axle? I'm not saying it is not improbable, but when you state that ALL Mauser Lugers had stamped toggle rear axles, do you mean to imply that in 900,000 produced not one -- not a single one -- ever left the factory that way.

For myself, I can envision some stupidity where the box of stamped axles was misplaced. And having a few dozen final "r" block s/42s awaiting assembly while the entire Mauser effort was being transition to the 42 codes and the later proof stamps, maybe it just wasn't worth it to go back and stamp the axles for those few s/42 Lugers and they just said, "aw, the heck with it send them out."

Not exactly how I envision the ever-efficient Germans.

Orv, are you certain as well that no Mauser Luger ever left the factory with a blank toggle rear axle?

Thanks for the help as if it could be authoritatively proved that ALL Mauser small parts were stamped, then this thread would serve to help me and others to know that if even 1 small part is blank the Luger COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE all original.

Thanks.

Jimbo

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-29-2002, 11:59 PM

Ralph; I have defended you on this and we need your input.
Lonnie

Jan C Still · 07-30-2002, 12:22 AM

Dear Folks
The following orders published on the 17 March 1932 in the
"Army Official Gazette" should be of interest in the above discussion. "In order to prevent rear connecting pins of Pistolen 08 from being exchanged by mistake each of the pins is to be marked on its head with the last two digits of the factory number"

Orders later that year cover police pistols and indicate that the numbering is to be done by local armories of the police detachments.

Pre 1932 Lugers that were routed to armories for any reason had the rear toggle pins stamped. This explains the many Imperial and Weimar era Lugers that have a sn stamped on rear toggle pin.

All the Mauser Army Lugers were required to have matched rear toggle pins. Mauser Lugers with little or no use ("Mint") should have all the parts matching as there is yet little chance of breakage. Well worn Lugers may have some replacement parts.

In general, all the origonal Mauser Army Lugers that I have observed have numbered rear toggle pins.

To quote Orv.
"You should never base an evaluation/explanation on what a seller said!...verify!..or, someday, [when you go to sell it]...you will get a real lesson in economics."
Jan

Herb · 07-30-2002, 12:57 AM

Another question on the toggle pin, my 1918 and 1916 DWM's are matching 'except' the magazine. The toggle pin is not numbered, and it is blued, is this normal for that era Luger?

Jerry Harris · 07-30-2002, 01:19 AM

Herb,
With regard to rear toggle pin numbering, Jan (directly above) says Imperials numbered only if routed to armory. Mauserlugers (about 6 entries above) says Imperials not originally numbered. So it looks like unnumbered would be normal for your 1916 & 1918. Don't know general case on pin bluing, but my 1918 DWM is blued (and unnumbered).

Jimbo · 07-30-2002, 02:10 AM

Hi Jan,

Thank you for your definitive response. Your 1932 issue is the authoritative proof which vindicates Bill M. and convincese me that ALL Lugers had stamped small parts before they left the Mauser factory.

All of my Lugers have all the small parts stamped except this 1939 s/42 from the "r" block. It was supposed to be "all matching mint in and out". Oh well, live and learn. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

I will contact Ralph and investigate why he believes the unstamped parts constitute all-mathching.

Thanks for the information. I feel good because I learned something new. I knew that mis-matched numbers constituted new parts but didn't realize blank parts did similarly. Now I know. I'll use that new knowledge in my next purchase. Thanks!

Jimbo the Enlightened One <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Lonnie Zimmerman · 07-30-2002, 07:10 PM

I checked my Mauser Lugers, and all (11) had the toggle pin numbered. Looks kinda bad for your near mint pistol. Thanks Bill Munis and Jan Still.
Lonnie

Lugerdoc · 07-31-2002, 10:08 AM

I have plenty of original Mauser numbered rear toggle axels and a few Imperial renumbered ones @$15 each. If anyone needs same to match up their PO8, please let me know last 2 digits and chamber date, as die sets and finish will vary over time. [email protected]

Orv Reichert · 07-31-2002, 12:28 PM

? [quote] I will contact Ralph and investigate why he believes the unstamped parts constitute all-matching. <hr></blockquote>

I, for one, would be interested in his reply. Would you please post it?

Orv Reichert

Jimbo · 08-01-2002, 07:23 PM

Hi Orv,

Sure. Why not?

Jimbo

07-29-2002, 11:59 PM	#25
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ralph; I have defended you on this and we need your input. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-30-2002, 12:57 AM	#27
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Another question on the toggle pin, my 1918 and 1916 DWM's are matching 'except' the magazine. The toggle pin is not numbered, and it is blued, is this normal for that era Luger? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-30-2002, 07:10 PM	#30
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I checked my Mauser Lugers, and all (11) had the toggle pin numbered. Looks kinda bad for your near mint pistol. Thanks Bill Munis and Jan Still. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

07-31-2002, 10:08 AM	#31
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I have plenty of original Mauser numbered rear toggle axels and a few Imperial renumbered ones @$15 each. If anyone needs same to match up their PO8, please let me know last 2 digits and chamber date, as die sets and finish will vary over time. [email protected] __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-31-2002, 12:28 PM	#32
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	? [quote] I will contact Ralph and investigate why he believes the unstamped parts constitute all-matching. <hr></blockquote> I, for one, would be interested in his reply. Would you please post it? Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-29-2002, 03:15 PM	#21
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	OK RK, I'll Catch!! What is that old phrase? Not only no, but HELL no! But then, that's just my opinion! To me mint implys just the way it left the factory, with no wear. I have seen very few Lugers with no wear, but they do exist. Even "near mint" still implys all matching, to me!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

07-29-2002, 05:22 PM	#22
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Rember guys, do your research! Each manufacture is different and each time frame is different. For instance, DWM and Erfurt are different than Mauser on the rear connecting pins being numbered. Imperial Lugers were NOT originally numbered. Mauser military variations were ALL numbered. You can not lump all Lugers together and just make a general conclusion. Same with the grip screws and ect. -- Bill

07-29-2002, 05:48 PM	#23
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Never pay all matching price for something that is all matching...except. The more excepts, the lower the price and the lower the demand when you get ready to sell it.

07-29-2002, 11:28 PM	#24
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Bill Munis, You know, maybe I made a mistake and this gun is not all original. The extractor and toggle rear axle are not stamped. But there are so many unexpected Luger variations out there such as the out-of-sequence 1940 s/42 and the 42-42, that while the blank extractor and axle seemed improbable, they did not seem impossible. First, does anyone else own a 1939 Mauser from the late transition "r" block for comparison? Second Bill, can you cite an authoritative source that no Mauser Luger ever left the factory with a blank toggle rear axle? I'm not saying it is not improbable, but when you state that ALL Mauser Lugers had stamped toggle rear axles, do you mean to imply that in 900,000 produced not one -- not a single one -- ever left the factory that way. For myself, I can envision some stupidity where the box of stamped axles was misplaced. And having a few dozen final "r" block s/42s awaiting assembly while the entire Mauser effort was being transition to the 42 codes and the later proof stamps, maybe it just wasn't worth it to go back and stamp the axles for those few s/42 Lugers and they just said, "aw, the heck with it send them out." Not exactly how I envision the ever-efficient Germans. Orv, are you certain as well that no Mauser Luger ever left the factory with a blank toggle rear axle? Thanks for the help as if it could be authoritatively proved that ALL Mauser small parts were stamped, then this thread would serve to help me and others to know that if even 1 small part is blank the Luger COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE all original. Thanks. Jimbo

07-30-2002, 12:22 AM	#26
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Dear Folks The following orders published on the 17 March 1932 in the "Army Official Gazette" should be of interest in the above discussion. "In order to prevent rear connecting pins of Pistolen 08 from being exchanged by mistake each of the pins is to be marked on its head with the last two digits of the factory number" Orders later that year cover police pistols and indicate that the numbering is to be done by local armories of the police detachments. Pre 1932 Lugers that were routed to armories for any reason had the rear toggle pins stamped. This explains the many Imperial and Weimar era Lugers that have a sn stamped on rear toggle pin. All the Mauser Army Lugers were required to have matched rear toggle pins. Mauser Lugers with little or no use ("Mint") should have all the parts matching as there is yet little chance of breakage. Well worn Lugers may have some replacement parts. In general, all the origonal Mauser Army Lugers that I have observed have numbered rear toggle pins. To quote Orv. "You should never base an evaluation/explanation on what a seller said!...verify!..or, someday, [when you go to sell it]...you will get a real lesson in economics." Jan

07-30-2002, 01:19 AM	#28
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Herb, With regard to rear toggle pin numbering, Jan (directly above) says Imperials numbered only if routed to armory. Mauserlugers (about 6 entries above) says Imperials not originally numbered. So it looks like unnumbered would be normal for your 1916 & 1918. Don't know general case on pin bluing, but my 1918 DWM is blued (and unnumbered).

07-30-2002, 02:10 AM	#29
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Jan, Thank you for your definitive response. Your 1932 issue is the authoritative proof which vindicates Bill M. and convincese me that ALL Lugers had stamped small parts before they left the Mauser factory. All of my Lugers have all the small parts stamped except this 1939 s/42 from the "r" block. It was supposed to be "all matching mint in and out". Oh well, live and learn. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> I will contact Ralph and investigate why he believes the unstamped parts constitute all-mathching. Thanks for the information. I feel good because I learned something new. I knew that mis-matched numbers constituted new parts but didn't realize blank parts did similarly. Now I know. I'll use that new knowledge in my next purchase. Thanks! Jimbo the Enlightened One <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

08-01-2002, 07:23 PM	#33
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Orv, Sure. Why not? Jimbo