9mm ammo

[DavidJayUden]

Regarding the toggle slap question of the Russian ammo vs. Winchester White Box, a trip to the shooting range this morning yielded unclear results. The degree of damage to the various strips of blue masking tape is very hard to read as it was fairly minor, the damage is inconsistent from one test group to the next, and I noticed that I was damaging the tape simply by loading the pistol from an empty chamber/lowered toggle attitude.
So the results are inconclusive, yet at the same time are conclusive enough for me, at least, to be comfortable occasionally using the steel cased Russian ammo in the Luger.
Test gun was a 1936 model, nearly matching and normally a good functioning gun. Of course a "G. T. special" mag. was used...
Tape is grouped by the ammo used and the damaged areas are along the upper edges. The left strip is after 2 shots, the center and right strips are both after 5 shots. The last pair is using reloaded 115 gs. cast bullets driven by 4.7 grains of Unique, and probably shows the least damage of all.
Sorry that it is both inconclusive and unscientific, but for me, at least, it's good enough for government work.
dju

[DonVoigt]

DJU,
you are a very patient guy.
Thanks for the effort and the report.

I see nothing to make me have concern over the Russian ammo over any of the others.
And I can add, I've seen much worse test tapes from WWB, so I think your mainspring is in good shape.

As was said above , toggle "rub" or "slap" is a feature of the luger design for sure; and the condition of the mainspring also affects the apparent "rub".

[rhuff]

David,

Thanx for your time, effort and ammo to show the forum your results. From what I can see, I would have no qualms about shooting the Russian ammo. Keep and eye on your extractor claw and chamber, but we all do that anyway. Nice visual.

[HerbZ]

What are the original German cartridge specs for a WW II P.08?

[Sieger]

Herb,

As taken from multiple original German texts of both WWI and WWII, as well as, commercial texts of that period, German Army ammo was standardized at:

123 grain bullet (either truncated cone or the later round nose) at a velocity of 1,076 fps.

Current 124 grain NATO Spec. 9mm is much hotter, ranging as high as 1,261, as fired through a 4.5 inch pistol barrel (an approximate 17% overload as compared to the original German Army loading above).

Shoot modern 9mm NATO ammo through your Luger at your own risk!


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

We've been down this road before; all "Nato" 9mm P is not loaded to 1,261 fps- though that may be the specification.

You can probably find the old threads by searching for "Nato" .

[Sieger]

Don,

If you want to chance it, then please go right ahead.

I was involved, in a very lengthy thread, just a while ago, on this very subject.

If our readers would like to read the warning, printed on each box of Winchester 9mm NATO ammo, (the warning is readily available on the internet), they may. In it, Winchester warns that 9mm NATO ammo is loaded to pressures 10 to 15% higher than standard industry specs. for the 9mm Luger. This ammo has been available at Walmart stores from time to time, and is, apparently, a military over run with primer seals and crimped in primers.

This Winchester 9mm NATO ammo has caused breach block slap in my Lugers.

Another HOT 124 grain 9mm NATO loading, as marketed by PPU, has a VERIFIED 1,261 (maximum) fps from a 4.5 inch barrel.

Obviously, there must be a variety of modern foreign military surplus ammo available here in the U.S. This ammo was designed for modern submachine guns and more modern pistol designs than the Luger. All of this ammo should be suspect when fired through a Luger.

One final item. There seems to be quite a variety of comments on and total misconceptions (some actually comical) of the definition of, causes of, and prevention of breach block slap. Please look for a future Sticky by me on this most misunderstood topic, as breach block slap will, eventually, destroy your Luger! And no, it was non existent with original spec. German Army ammo.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

We've been down this road before; all "Nato" 9mm P is not loaded to 1,261 fps- though that may be the specification.

You can probably find the old threads by searching for "Nato" .

Don,

Than why don't you test it all and tell us what is and what is not, rather than just guessing!

Why of course not, as that would be impossible, now wouldn't it.


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Don,

Than why don't you test it all and tell us what is and what is not, rather than just guessing!

Why of course not, as that would be impossible, now wouldn't it.


Sieger

Seiger,

I did post the information I found published on the velocity of various 9mm nato rounds in a thread related to this same question- either here or on the other luger forum.

I'm not guessing, data on velocity are published by the manufacturers if you just look.

And it would not be impossible to test, just tedious.

I agree that Nato ammo is not first choice ammo for lugers.

Additional info:
Seems some folks like to test velocity more than I. So in a couple minutes searching I find 6 or more "Nato" velocity tests.
You can watch the videos yourself if you wish:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...ty&FORM=VRMHRS

From 5 minutes of watching several videos:
Average velocity in fps of "Nato" named ammo from:
PPU -1120 from 4" bbl, 1244 from 5.5", and 1371 from 8"
Win- 1124
Zqi- 1146

So dig in and read/watch as many as you wish.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Seiger,

I did post the information I found published on the velocity of various 9mm nato rounds in a thread related to this same question- either here or on the other luger forum.

I'm not guessing, data on velocity are published by the manufacturers if you just look.

And it would not be impossible to test, just tedious.

I agree that Nato ammo is not first choice ammo for lugers.

Additional info:
Seems some folks like to test velocity more than I. So in a couple minutes searching I find 6 or more "Nato" velocity tests.
You can watch the videos yourself if you wish:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...ty&FORM=VRMHRS

From 5 minutes of watching several videos:
Average velocity in fps of "Nato" named ammo from:
PPU -1120 from 4" bbl, 1244 from 5.5", and 1371 from 8"
Win- 1124
Zqi- 1146

So dig in and read/watch as many as you wish.

Don,

Thanks!

In the comprehensive "Ballistics 101" data you posted last April, there were NO 9mm NATO loadings listed in it. Please confirm.

Please view the video on PPU 9mm NATO again, in FULL detail.

The PPU 124 grain 9mm NATO ammo, as shot through the Glock 19, (4.5 inch barrel, with conventional rifling) had a high of 1,261 fps with an average of 1,245 fps. The same cartridge fired from a Beretta M9 (5.1 inch barrel) had a high of 1.231 fps with an average of 1,212 fps. Please note that these ARE NOT muzzle velocities, but rather, fired at 10 to 12 feet from the barrel.

The same shooter tested Winchester 124 grain 9mm NATO (again, at 10 to 12 feet from the barrel).

S&W M&P, 4.95 inch barrel (very close to the M9 length), high 1,217 fps, 1,207 average.

These verified results would tend speak for themselves.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

Here is the other PPU 9mm NATO test.

The same shooter tested PPU 115 grain 9mm NATO (again, 10 to 12 feet from the barrel).

Beretta M9, 5.1 inch barrel, high 1,260 fps, average 1,242 fps.

This load was noticeably hotter than the 124 grain PPU NATO load listed above.

The velocity differences between a 4 inch Luger barrel and the 4.5 inch Glock barrel listed above would not be significant.

Don, I don't know of any other post you may have made on 9mm NATO specs. other than the one I referenced above. Please verify and/or repost.

Thanks!


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Lots of info there, there are many videos so eveyrone can look at them, maybe even find "their" ammo and draw their own conclusion. The 4" bbl of the luger will yield even lower velocity than the 4.5 to 5.1" bbls noted in that video

There are at least two PPU videos, check them both out. One uses an 7.8" bbl.

If you looked at the post, you know what is in it. I did a post with nato info; please do post a link to it so we can all find it again!

As you say the info is there, one just has to look.

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

War weapons, used in war, the longevity of the weapon is not a primary goal, make them cheaply and put as many into your side's hands as possible.

I found your comment interesting. I've talked to guys who restore WWII fighters (Hurricanes and Bf109s) and they say exactly the same thing about the aircraft. It creates all kinds of issues in restoration and then operation of vintage aircraft.

Re: Lugers, I'm almost wondering if it would make sense to come up with a custom load that is lighter than WWB 115gr., and then balance (weaken) the mainspring just enough to cycle the pistol, all with the objective of lowering pressures and therefore aiding in preservation. In a perfect world there would be a way to measure mainspring strength and then go to a table to verify that you are ok or not vs. the ammo you want to use. In the real and imperfect world I've had to settle for the tape test instead.

[Rick W.]

Greg,

My comment about war weapons is one of the darker sides of the gunmaker's art form and guess at times, humanity. A simple example of going econo............might be............from the finely made Thompson 45acp sub gun............to the 45 cal grease gun. Both did what they were made for. Just an observation from a casual reserver.

I found your comment about vintage airplanes interesting as well, never thought down that line before.

I have found the tape test to be an indicator of what is going on with a Luger at times. Whomever thought of that, was a thinker; certainly was not me. An easy asset with everyday items..........he had a fine thought that day, useful it is.

I have used the Wolff 38# spring so long that I don't know nothing else, 30's or 9's or wildcats. I have some 36# springs as well, but after all these years and doing stuff, they sit in their wrappers unopened fwiw.

I have not thought about reducing load or spring compression numbers enough to be even semi dangerous. As a norm, every new to me Luger gets a 38# wolffee if I am going to shoot it a lot. Not everyone would agree with that, and I can see their points too; to each their own as they are the ones the buck stops with.

I have long dreamed of a wildcat in 22 to 25 caliber on the 9mm or 30 Luger case. As you know the Luger is a pretty good design to start with. I have visited with fairly heavy Luger guys about such and they all warn me about function without undue pressures, if I got the gist right. I have just finished a 22 squirrel on a K38 frame with K22 barrel and cylinder, made my own dies too. I think the smallish caliber Luger probably is more of a challenge, guess that is why I have laid off for these many years on such.............wimp I guess.

A moderate load in the semi regular 30 or 9, that works the action with a little overage probably will last your lifetime. I think there are functional characteristics that take certain power and resistance.

I have not thought about an under loaded Luger much, but tis good to see the fire in the distance. There is so much to these pistols............a lifetime is not enough.

[HerbZ]

Isn't our main concern with shooting a Luger, is that it functions properly, and without damaging the pistol. Then wouldn't the specification we should be most concerned with is muzzle energy? If the original German Army specs are a 123 gr bullet at 1,076 fps, that's 316 ft-lbs. May we assume that's a good solid amount of energy for safe and reliable functioning, and plenty enough "for war."

Then NATO spec 9mm of 124 gr at 1261 fps would have a muzzle energy of 438 ft-lbs. If I'm doing the math right, that's a 38.6% increase in muzzle energy. That can't be good for any Luger to run a couple of boxes through once in awhile.

So here's a real life problem. When Ohio's lockdown is over for sure, I've a nephew and some grands that want to shoot my byf 42. Everyone had already bought a box of 9mm at Cabela's. I certainly don't want to damage the P.08, but shooting underpowered ammo may cause malfunctions. There's a box of Sig; 115 gr FMJ, 1185 fps, 359 ft-lbs, another kind of Sig; 115 gr FMJ, 1050 fps, 282 ft-lbs, and a box of PPU; 115 gr FMJ, 990 fps, 250 ft-lbs.

I know we can't be absolutely certain of any of these specs, made in the USA or Serbia, but they're all I have to work with here. I'm thinking the hottest is too hot. Maybe the middle one is in the Goldilocks zone? Is the PPU ammo too underpowered?

[Vlim]

I have long dreamed of a wildcat in 22 to 25 caliber on the 9mm or 30 Luger case. As you know the Luger is a pretty good design to start with.

Take a look at the .22 Lowenstein Luger round.
There is some evidence that Mauser considered that round in the post war Parabellum pistol.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by HerbZ

Isn't our main concern with shooting a Luger, is that it functions properly, and without damaging the pistol. Then wouldn't the specification we should be most concerned with is muzzle energy? If the original German Army specs are a 123 gr bullet at 1,076 fps, that's 316 ft-lbs. May we assume that's a good solid amount of energy for safe and reliable functioning, and plenty enough "for war."

Then NATO spec 9mm of 124 gr at 1261 fps would have a muzzle energy of 438 ft-lbs. If I'm doing the math right, that's a 38.6% increase in muzzle energy. That can't be good for any Luger to run a couple of boxes through once in awhile.

So here's a real life problem. When Ohio's lockdown is over for sure, I've a nephew and some grands that want to shoot my byf 42. Everyone had already bought a box of 9mm at Cabela's. I certainly don't want to damage the P.08, but shooting underpowered ammo may cause malfunctions. There's a box of Sig; 115 gr FMJ, 1185 fps, 359 ft-lbs, another kind of Sig; 115 gr FMJ, 1050 fps, 282 ft-lbs, and a box of PPU; 115 gr FMJ, 990 fps, 250 ft-lbs.

I know we can't be absolutely certain of any of these specs, made in the USA or Serbia, but they're all I have to work with here. I'm thinking the hottest is too hot. Maybe the middle one is in the Goldilocks zone? Is the PPU ammo too underpowered?

Hi Herb,

The Sig and PPU specs. you have listed look funky to me.

Do you reload at all?

If not, The Fiocchi 123 Grain Combat round (truncated cone bullet almost an exact replica of DWM's original bullet) has worked perfectly in my BYF 41 AND is NOT overpowered!

Your grand kids may have to wait a little longer until CV 19 mess straightens up.

Good shooting!


Sieger

[hayhugh]

When I first got my Lugerman .45 Luger I checked around the site about ammo. Someone mentioned that .45 steel case worked very well in this type of pistol. I took their word and purchased 500 rounds of Wolf.45 steel case ammo for use with this pistol. After reading this post I am wondering if this was a good purchase. Any comments?

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by hayhugh

When I first got my Lugerman .45 Luger I checked around the site about ammo. Someone mentioned that .45 steel case worked very well in this type of pistol. I took their word and purchased 500 rounds of Wolf.45 steel case ammo for use with this pistol. After reading this post I am wondering if this was a good purchase. Any comments?

Hi Hayhugh,

I know that these Lugerman recreations are quite well done, so congratulations on your purchase!

No, I don't believe that steel cased ammo should be used in any Luger. Why? Because of excessive ware caused by steel on steel contact (case to extractor, etc.). By the way, the original, late war, German steel cased stuff was marked "Not for use in Pistol 08".

A while ago we had quite a long thread discussing this very issue, so, no doubt, opinions will vary, accordingly.

Just my advice.


Sieger

[Vlim]

Lacquered steel cases could get stuck in the P08's stepped chamber. Easily cured by reaming out the stepped area, but probably wasn't worth the hassle.

[HerbZ]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi Herb,

The Sig and PPU specs. you have listed look funky to me.

Do you reload at all?

If not, The Fiocchi 123 Grain Combat round (truncated cone bullet almost an exact replica of DWM's original bullet) has worked perfectly in my BYF 41 AND is NOT overpowered!

Your grand kids may have to wait a little longer until CV 19 mess straightens up.

Good shooting!


Sieger

I'm not sure what you mean by funky in regards to the specs I gave for the two different Sig and one of PPU ammo.

I presume you don't mean funky, as in music, and the only other definitions I can think of are either, filthy or questionable.

The Sig specs are from right on their boxes. Like I wrote, they're all I have to work with, so I have to trust that they're reasonable guesstimates, and at least good enough for relative comparison. Certainly I should be able to trust that one box of Sig ammo is hot than the other. My question, still unanswered, is if the hotter one is too hot and the slower load not hot enough?

With the PPU ammo, the only spec given on the box is the bullet weight, 115 gr, the same as the two Sig loads. Different websites selling this ammo (when it's in stock) give different muzzle velocities. So using one of the many calculators on the Internet for calculating muzzle energy are going to give different ft-lbs depending on the muzzle velocity input. In that earlier posting I gave a low one compared to one I just now found for the exact same ammo. based on both the photo of the box and the UPC on the box.

PPU Handgun Line 9mm Luger FMJ 115gr, 1145fps, 335 ft-lbs.

Like I said, I feel I can take what printed on the Sig boxes as a good guesstimate. PPU is something else.