Toggle sticking open

[rhuff]

The way I read the OP is that the toggle train "sticks in the full open position", and a slight bump and it goes to battery. It is not locking in the full open position like one would with a functional toggle lock in a normal situation. Anyway, that is how I understand the OP.

[Military Engineer]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

I did see that post, thank you. I also read post #23, that reports that with the hold open removed it 'stays the same'. A Luger that locks open with no hold-open I find astounding. I feel I have at least a working knowledge of Luger operation and can think of no scenario that would permit a Luger to lock open with no hold open present. Hence my request for a description of what exactly "sticks open" means.

I can't lose by asking this question. If the OP advises that indeed the pistol is locking open with no hold open in the gun, I will have learned something. If he advises the toggle is doing something short of locking open, we will have valuable clarification and be able to better assist.

Yes. When the problem became pretty bad a few weeks ago, I originally thought the hold open spring or something was bad. While I was at the range, I took it apart and completely removed the hold open, spring and all.

The toggle takes a little effort to pull back and when I get it back, it stays there, almost as if there's binding. The problem is relatively recent, so I'm not sure what to make of it, but GT sent me some test parts to eliminate some possibilities.

If I pull the bolt partially back, then it will usually return to battery, but many times, if I pull the toggle PARTIALLY back, say about 2/3 or 3/4, it will go ALMOST all the way home; ie it will leave the action open, ie about a 1/4 inch between the bolt face and the chamber with the toggle up between 1/8 and 1/4 inch.

For your edification, I have learned, and had it reinforced, that Lugers that are rebarreled as mine has been, sometimes get the forks bent just a hair and it would cause the issue. The rebarreling of this one happened over 6 years ago, so I'm doubtful of the idea this is the issue, but at this point, I'm open to whatever it may be.

I'm as absolutely curious now as everyone else. I'd like my baby back in shooting condition.

I just got off my reserve weekend this evening, so perhaps tomorrow afternoon after work, I'm going to set about doing some testing.

[Military Engineer]

So...I thought I'd update a little before I went to bed. I got bored and decided to do a little testing.

GT was very kind in sending me a stripped upper receiver and stripped toggle train; that is to say --no striker,
--no extractor,
--no ejector,
--no sear bar,
--no sear bar spring,
--no barrel

Just the:
--bolt block
--front toggle
--rear toggle link
--"S" link

His works smoothly and with no resistance at all. Bolt block slides in and out of the forks with virtually zero resistance. I already have an idea of my problem, as my bolt block has significant resistance compared to his just going into the grooves in the forks.

Test 1: Replaced my upper with his upper as a complete unit. I removed my sear bar, sear bar spring and extractor to make things match. Problem is gone. Toggle pulls back with zero issues and goes home every time. No hang ups at all.

Test 2: my upper and his toggle train with "S" link. Bolt block has significant resistance going into the forks and at least twice got really tight when in full battery. Problem has returned and requires slightly more force to pull back the toggle and just a slightly harder tap to close into battery.

Test 3: His upper and my toggle train and "S" link. My bolts slips very easily into his upper. Virtually no resistance, just as his toggle does in his upper. But still, the problem has returned. Toggle sticks open when pulled completely back, but takes less "push" by my thumb to close the bolt and go into battery.

As I do this, I'm beginning to suspect that my original premise of a number of things coming together are causing the issue. I'm going to try and post some pix later, but there is a wear in places that indicate possible binding around the "shoulders" of the frame and on the bottom of one side of the fork rail. I'm also beginning to suspect that the shoulders of the frame behind the toggle have possibly been bent inward a bit owing to some strange wear patterns on the toggle train at the rear axle pin. Also, the middle axle pin, connecting the front and rear toggle parts at the top protrudes a bit and seems to bind up a little at the right side of the frame.

I'm going to get some machinist's dye and coat all of the internal metal parts and see where it rubs off. I'm going to test a hypothesis:

I think the forks on mine are torqued a bit, as a few others have surmised, during the rebarreling process long ago and it has just gotten bad enough now. The fact is that the test receiver easily accepts both bolts, and mine resists both of them.

I am simply not sure, but that's where I am and it's time for bed. Any insights with the new info would be appreciated.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Military Engineer

I'm going to get some machinist's dye and coat all of the internal metal parts and see where it rubs off. I'm going to test a hypothesis:

Machinists often use Magic Marker for this these days.

[Military Engineer]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I think, I really think, it's FIXED. Several folks indicated a possible torqued fork from the rebarrel, but as the repair would show (or at least suggest), this pistol took an impact some time ago along the right "ear" on the frame--the part that serves to retain the rear toggle link pin (axle pin). I need help posting pix if anyone is interested. Here's what i think: The impact deformed the right ear a bit creating a high point inside where the fork slides. The ear does not yield when it cycles, the fork does, so the fork was being jammed against the toggle link. This would explain the wear pattern on the ejector and forks. The signature tight tolerances worked against the pistol here, because when I cycle the toggle it would take much more force that with GTs upper. Since the pistol has been doing this for a while, I think the fork developed a slight misalignment, which is why GTs upper was much harder to cycle and get the bolt out of(his is perfectly straight) but also explains why my toggle link fit so nicely into his upper and why mine jammed both bolts. Extremely minor, since all it took to force it back into battery was my thumb.

So here's what I did. As far as what triggered the original problem, I'm not sure, but if we have a thread that talks specifically about Luger issues, I'm hoping we can put this there for the next guy. Or gal...I'm not sexist.

So I decided to operate under the assumption that there was an interference fit, which was why it was fine until you pulled it all the way back where it stuck. I knew that GTs complete upper not only operated, but fit into the slide and operated perfectly. If I had a berrel, I would have gone out and shot it. But I digress. When I cycled it, there were some strange marks that only come from metal against metal and in places not normal. I am going to post pics, but I will need help to do it from someone here, as I am having a devil of a time getting it done. Unfortunaly, some will only show the repair work, as I didn't think to do before pics.

Anyway, I took the frame, the fork and the toggle train apart. I used a fine file to smooth out the "ears" of the frame (the high points that encapsulate the rear toggle pin in the fork) on the inside. It started out very, very rough. I also noticed that on the right ear, directly behind the toggle, it looks like it took a hit at one point in the past. The impact was in line to the ear, not perpendicular to it. It explains the high point inside. Mic-ing the parts revealed uneven measurements at the base of the ears and one side verses the other.

Next, I smooth filed the inside of the forks, at the rear where the rear toggle pin (axle pin) retains the rear half of the toggle link. I smooth filed about1/3 forward toward the chamber. There were some really high points and extremely rough machine tool marks, which could only be original. Much smoother now.

I used a fine file also on the insides of both of the grooves in which the breech block slides. I smooth filed them and also did it for a while to file down a smidgeon of material to open it up a bit...not more that 1/10,000 -- very fine file 20-30 times on each side.

Results? Smooth sliding surfaces now and there is no more sticking. The bolt snaps right back into battery, so the springs I just ordered may just be spares now. Bloody thing nearly took the tip of my finger when I got it back together because I wasn't expecting it to close that easily.

Now I really need to find someone who does blueing in SoCal.
Mark

[kurusu]

Just for the picture part. Click on the the paper clip icon. The manage attachement should open.

In the upload file from your computer part of the window click on select file.

It will open a new window at the bottom. Click on files.

Browse your computer for where you keep the pictures you want to insert.
Click on the picture you want to insert. And then on upload.

It's done.

[G.T.]

Hi to all! This complete thread is very good example of how difficult it is to track down a luger malfunction issue? And, it is kind of ironic, that the more you know, the harder it seems to be to find and fix the problem? My gut feeling was an interference at some point, but I've seen so many different problems at both ends, where do you start? Mark obviously has some talent, as he speaks the correct language for problem solving and repair procedures. But for most it is like a picture with no focus? The lessons to take away from this exercise are, in my view, many fold. But we will point out the most important...
First, go slow! Don't rush to alter something just because it seems as the right thing to do initially?
Second, test, substitute parts, establish a repair protocol and start eliminating potential hot spots!
Third, alter very little, only enough to correct and make what you believe should happen, happen?
Fourth and maybe most important, seek out info and help from others who have experience, parts and skills in the area of repair you are now entering!
This forum is a wealth of information, and a great bunch of members willing to share and help! Great fun for all I know of no other place like it... best to all, til....lat'r....GT...

[Military Engineer]

All,

Took it to the range. Fired 30 rounds without a single locked toggle. I'm going to fine tune a little, but she's fixed.

I just wanted to give a shout out for everyone that helped, especially GT, who sent me the parts to help in the diagnosis.

I've attached the pix; some are after photos. Unfortunately, I didn't take the photos until after I started. Mainly I'm including them for posterity and for those who might have been having some issues visualizing the problem. First / second pics are where I think it was impacted, mushrooming the metal in and out perpendicular to the faces.

The ear does not yield when the toggle train comes back, so the right fork (because of the built up material on the inner face) was both rubbing against the "ear" and being pushed leftward, binding up the toggle train against what was a really rough inner surface to begin with. It explains the hard pull and rough feeling as the toggle is manually cycled. It's being bound up by the interference fit. When I filed the ear, I took a surprising amount of meat down to make it flat, as you can see by the shiny parts.

Does anyone per chance have good recommendation for someone within say 100 or 125 or so miles of San Diego that can blue a pistol?

Mark

[lugerholsterrepair]

Nice followup! GT is deffinitely a stellar guy, a valuable resource although he doesn't charge near what he's worth! Don't forget to kick him a little tip for beer or remember him at Christmas! I have a very dear 85 year old friend in Yuma who taught me this. Don"t just SAY that cheap common word..THANKS! $HOW appreciation like you mean it.

[DonVoigt]

The mainspring strut/retainer/guide may be bent.
Even with the correct coil count the mainspring may be too long and bunching up enough to "lock" when at full recoil.

A picture would help- grips removed with toggle held back at full recoil- showing condition of the spring.

If the toggle is hard to fully open by hand, something is wrong with the mainspring/strut length/size/ or alignment. JMHO.