M1914 Navy Luger... - Page 3

Ida-Alp · 12-16-2004, 10:55 AM

This thread has been a great learning experience for a newbe like me. Can someone explain the reference to "halos"?? Thanks--Al

Ron Smith · 12-16-2004, 11:29 AM

Hi Al,

Halo means the slight fuzzy outline of marks stamped on the pistol after it has been blued. Looks like a hazy border around the number or mark. Most noticable around the ser# stamped on the bottom of the barrel on pre early 1937 Lugers that have not been reblued. A reblue will not have the halos.
When the numbers are stamped on a blued gun. The metal around the edges of the stamp will "up-set" or be forced away. The result is that the blue will be thinned around the very edges of the indentation made by the die. Causing a pale satiny border around the number or mark.

Ron

Tomathvl · 12-16-2004, 11:30 AM

Here's an example I stole from a Pete Ebbink post. Thanks Pete. You can see the halo outline around the numbers. This is caused by the stamps when done after the finish is completed. If it's refinished there's no halo.
Tom

If you don't succeed, try....................
Tom

larry · 12-16-2004, 12:55 PM

Pete
Did you notice the short frame? Shouldn't that be a long frame on an 06?
larry

Navy · 12-16-2004, 05:32 PM

Also note the wavy striations abeam the number 8; come on guys, this thing is waving a bevy of flags.

Tom A

Tomathvl · 12-16-2004, 07:16 PM

Tom A
ABEAM? WOW! You Navy guys are really dedicated to Navy stuff, even the lingo.
Tom B

Ida-Alp · 12-16-2004, 09:41 PM

Thanks for the explaination Ron. Very useful info--Al

Pete Ebbink · 12-29-2004, 03:28 PM

Larry asked a good question that I think went un-answered in this discussion thread :

Is a long frame or a short frame correct for a M1906 Navy luger ? Or both ???

Is a long frame or a short frame correct for a M1908 Navy luger ? Or both ???

I am pretty sure the M1914 Navy were all short framed.

Regards,

Pete...

larry · 12-30-2004, 01:58 PM

Thanks Pete. My early 08 has a long frame. Just assumed that long frames were the norm for 08s. Or, were they using up the old stock of long frames and both were used? Would anyone know when the long frame was discontinued from production? I apologize if this question has been answered before.
Thanks

larry

Pete Ebbink · 12-30-2004, 09:36 PM

Hi Larry,

Until one of our resident Navy experts jumps in and makes us all a bit smarter, you might want to visit a posting done by Ron Wood (aka Professor Wood...) back in June 2002 in the Early Lugers section, titled "Early Frame Tutorial".

Lots of great info...but I am not sure it specifically nails down your questions about proper frames for the M1906 and M1908 Navy lugers...

Thought you might find it educational until one of our Navy experts wakes up and sees your inquiry...

Regards,

Pete...

Navy · 12-31-2004, 02:48 PM

Gents,

The '04, '06 and '08 have long frames. The '14's have short frames.

Tom A.

larry · 12-31-2004, 10:12 PM

Thanks guys.

larry

Pete Ebbink · 01-01-2005, 11:13 PM

So this M1906 commercial Navy with a short frame should not have the short frame...?

www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06commnav1.htm

...with an asking price of $ 12,500...

Heinz · 01-02-2005, 10:20 AM

Pete, is there any doubt in your mind that:
1) This is a reblue
2) Most of the writeup is mythology i.e. Used to distinguish 7.35 from 9 MM magazines (why? they are interchangeable)
3) This may be based on a 1920's grip safety model like the one on Simpsons at http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/DWM/D-124/D-124.htm or more likely is a modification of a 1914 frame by the "restorer"

Would be nice to get a close set of photos of the proofs and the navy sight.

Is there a record of 2500 commercial M1904 pistols? That volume of STill is packed in the moving stuff

Ron Smith · 01-02-2005, 11:26 AM

I have been studying their photography technique. Notice how they high light the the areas of the pistols that are in very good condition and darken the areas that would show wear or roughness. The ends of the barrels, sight bands etc. are darker to hide any wear or pitting. "If you can't baffle them with Bulls**t. Blind them with brilliance!"
An old sailors trick. To pass an inspection, polish the brasswork, so that it is all they will see. The rest of the area can look like crap. It works 99% of the time. (more Navy stuff)
Ron

Pete Ebbink · 01-02-2005, 01:22 PM

The seller's ad claims :

1. It is a text book Navy...

2. Then refers to C. Kenyon's LAR book, page 92 which shows or indicates :

a. A Long framed M1906 Navy...

b. GESICHERT thumb safety marking and not the "polished" type marking as on this piece.

luger11 · 01-02-2005, 05:18 PM

Hi Pete.......The 06 Commercial that you fondeld so dearly at the NAPCA meeting is a long frame as it should be.

Leo

Pete Ebbink · 01-03-2005, 10:38 PM

Yes, Leo...I remember your beauty...!

The adoption agency is still standing by...

Regards,

Pete...

Big Norm · 01-11-2005, 02:25 AM

I am a little late in responding to this topic but here is my two cents.
(1) all M1906, navies as well as the commercial navy, have the long frame.
(2) all 1908 military (navy) have long frames.
(3) the 1908 COMMERCIAL navy may have long or short frames. See page 211 of John Walters book, The Luger Book. He states that "there were a handful of short frame navy commercials in the 56747-58634 group without grip safeties.". I have physically held only one.
(4) all M1914 navies have the short frame.
Big Norm

OldFalGuy · 02-28-2005, 08:22 PM

He (Phoenix) has a 1906 Imperial Navy Rig that is complete and not in near as nice condition as the one under discussion above for the same big price $12,000. IF it was worth that much I would probably buy it though I think its worth a good bit less. Its a matched up rig with all the mags, stock and holster matching which if for real would indeed be a great peice to have. Is there anything off about this one at first or second blush as was pointed out earlier with the other navy he has? I am a novice but able to learn- I noticed the area under the safety "appears" blued in and not in the white as suggested would be correct? I would be willing to get on a plane and look at this one if it straight. Comments????

Mark

12-16-2004, 11:29 AM	#42
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Al, Halo means the slight fuzzy outline of marks stamped on the pistol after it has been blued. Looks like a hazy border around the number or mark. Most noticable around the ser# stamped on the bottom of the barrel on pre early 1937 Lugers that have not been reblued. A reblue will not have the halos. When the numbers are stamped on a blued gun. The metal around the edges of the stamp will "up-set" or be forced away. The result is that the blue will be thinned around the very edges of the indentation made by the die. Causing a pale satiny border around the number or mark. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-29-2004, 03:28 PM	#48
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Short or Long Frame... Larry asked a good question that I think went un-answered in this discussion thread : Is a long frame or a short frame correct for a M1906 Navy luger ? Or both ??? Is a long frame or a short frame correct for a M1908 Navy luger ? Or both ??? I am pretty sure the M1914 Navy were all short framed. Regards, Pete...

12-30-2004, 09:36 PM	#50
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Ron Wood's Frame Tutorial... Hi Larry, Until one of our resident Navy experts jumps in and makes us all a bit smarter, you might want to visit a posting done by Ron Wood (aka Professor Wood...) back in June 2002 in the Early Lugers section, titled "Early Frame Tutorial". Lots of great info...but I am not sure it specifically nails down your questions about proper frames for the M1906 and M1908 Navy lugers... Thought you might find it educational until one of our Navy experts wakes up and sees your inquiry... Regards, Pete...

01-01-2005, 11:13 PM	#53
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	M1906 w/Short Frame...??? So this M1906 commercial Navy with a short frame should not have the short frame...? www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06commnav1.htm ...with an asking price of $ 12,500...

01-02-2005, 11:26 AM	#55
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I have been studying their photography technique. Notice how they high light the the areas of the pistols that are in very good condition and darken the areas that would show wear or roughness. The ends of the barrels, sight bands etc. are darker to hide any wear or pitting. "If you can't baffle them with Bullst. Blind them with brilliance!" An old sailors trick. To pass an inspection, polish the brasswork, so that it is all they will see. The rest of the area can look like crap. It works 99% of the time. (more Navy stuff) Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~** said...

12-16-2004, 10:55 AM	#41
Ida-Alp Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Nampa ID Posts: 116 Thanks: 81 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	This thread has been a great learning experience for a newbe like me. Can someone explain the reference to "halos"?? Thanks--Al

12-16-2004, 11:30 AM	#43
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Here's an example I stole from a Pete Ebbink post. Thanks Pete. You can see the halo outline around the numbers. This is caused by the stamps when done after the finish is completed. If it's refinished there's no halo. Tom If you don't succeed, try.................... Tom

12-16-2004, 12:55 PM	#44
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Pete Did you notice the short frame? Shouldn't that be a long frame on an 06? larry

12-16-2004, 05:32 PM	#45
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Also note the wavy striations abeam the number 8; come on guys, this thing is waving a bevy of flags. Tom A

12-16-2004, 07:16 PM	#46
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Tom A ABEAM? WOW! You Navy guys are really dedicated to Navy stuff, even the lingo. Tom B

12-16-2004, 09:41 PM	#47
Ida-Alp Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Nampa ID Posts: 116 Thanks: 81 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for the explaination Ron. Very useful info--Al

12-30-2004, 01:58 PM	#49
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks Pete. My early 08 has a long frame. Just assumed that long frames were the norm for 08s. Or, were they using up the old stock of long frames and both were used? Would anyone know when the long frame was discontinued from production? I apologize if this question has been answered before. Thanks larry

12-31-2004, 02:48 PM	#51
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Gents, The '04, '06 and '08 have long frames. The '14's have short frames. Tom A.

12-31-2004, 10:12 PM	#52
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks guys. larry

01-02-2005, 10:20 AM	#54
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Pete, is there any doubt in your mind that: 1) This is a reblue 2) Most of the writeup is mythology i.e. Used to distinguish 7.35 from 9 MM magazines (why? they are interchangeable) 3) This may be based on a 1920's grip safety model like the one on Simpsons at http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/DWM/D-124/D-124.htm or more likely is a modification of a 1914 frame by the "restorer" Would be nice to get a close set of photos of the proofs and the navy sight. Is there a record of 2500 commercial M1904 pistols? That volume of STill is packed in the moving stuff

01-02-2005, 01:22 PM	#56
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Curious... The seller's ad claims : 1. It is a text book Navy... 2. Then refers to C. Kenyon's LAR book, page 92 which shows or indicates : a. A Long framed M1906 Navy... b. GESICHERT thumb safety marking and not the "polished" type marking as on this piece.

01-02-2005, 05:18 PM	#57
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Pete.......The 06 Commercial that you fondeld so dearly at the NAPCA meeting is a long frame as it should be. Leo

01-03-2005, 10:38 PM	#58
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Yes, Leo...I remember your beauty...! The adoption agency is still standing by... Regards, Pete...

01-11-2005, 02:25 AM	#59
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I am a little late in responding to this topic but here is my two cents. (1) all M1906, navies as well as the commercial navy, have the long frame. (2) all 1908 military (navy) have long frames. (3) the 1908 COMMERCIAL navy may have long or short frames. See page 211 of John Walters book, The Luger Book. He states that "there were a handful of short frame navy commercials in the 56747-58634 group without grip safeties.". I have physically held only one. (4) all M1914 navies have the short frame. Big Norm

02-28-2005, 08:22 PM	#60
OldFalGuy User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	He (Phoenix) has a 1906 Imperial Navy Rig that is complete and not in near as nice condition as the one under discussion above for the same big price $12,000. IF it was worth that much I would probably buy it though I think its worth a good bit less. Its a matched up rig with all the mags, stock and holster matching which if for real would indeed be a great peice to have. Is there anything off about this one at first or second blush as was pointed out earlier with the other navy he has? I am a novice but able to learn- I noticed the area under the safety "appears" blued in and not in the white as suggested would be correct? I would be willing to get on a plane and look at this one if it straight. Comments???? Mark