New acqusistion 1908 from isolation

[Norme]

The brass marking disc is like a mirage, visible on the horizon but vanishing as you get closer. About five years ago a collector in New Zealand told me that an original Navy stock with brass marking disc was coming up for sale in a small country auction some distance outside Auckland. How likely is it, I thought, that a fake would show up in such a remote and obscure location? Sensing my keen interest he volunteered to drive the 40 miles each way to take photographs. Needless to say it turned out to be a fake after all. I did save the photo of the disc...

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Norme

The brass marking disc is like a mirage, visible on the horizon but vanishing as you get closer. About five years ago a collector in New Zealand told me that an original Navy stock with brass marking disc was coming up for sale in a small country auction some distance outside Auckland. How likely is it, I thought, that a fake would show up in such a remote and obscure location? Sensing my keen interest he volunteered to drive the 40 miles each way to take photographs. Needless to say it turned out to be a fake after all. I did save the photo of the disc...

There must be thousands of "surplus" brass discs floating around the British Empire, as they were used in the butt stock of the Enfield/Metford rifles and carbines.

I have several if anyone needs to convert their correct German Navy stock steel disc to brass!
In fact, I'll trade you two brass for one of your old rusty steel ones.

[m1903a3]

Simpson has a disc for sale on their site. I remember when it was in a stock, so It does make me wonder what became of the stock it was in. Perhaps "improved"?

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...e81fac5bfa7aa3

They also have a real stock for sale.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...e81fac5bfa7aa3

[cirelaw]

The Borchardt-Luger,Accesories Stocks, Chapter 13~LugerPistols, Page 913

[Mark1]

I can provide a little more information regarding the Navy stock, from NZ in 2012, mentioned in Norme's post #81 above.
Right from the start it proved difficult to get firm opinions from local " Luger people"on the authenticity of this stock. In the end it was not described as Original or Authentic in the auction catalogue because some doubt remained and the reserve was accordingly set quite low. On auction day it sold for NZ$500 (around US$300 at the time) and my view is that the auction floor established the true value, as it should.
As a footnote, it was confirmed some time later that the stock had been imported into NZ in the 1970"s from Mr Shattuck in the US, together with the 1917 dated P04 which was auctioned on the same day.
Mark

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Mark!
It is not too much of a stretch for me to "trace" the written references of "brass discs rarely encountered" to this single stock which came from a now confirmed dubious source.

Pretty much an "ah-ha!" moment to me. JMHO of course.

There was a lot of luger skull-duggery in the '60's and 70's for sure; continuing to the present day. We should all keep in mind that that time is now 40-50 years in the past, add some intentional initial "ageing" and you have "real" patina.

[Norme]

I imagine that those reading this thread who are not themselves Navy Luger collectors must be wondering what all the fuss is about. Quite simply, Navy stocks are rare, very rare. Even though they were produced in equal numbers to the guns, their survival ratio is far lower, perhaps less than 1:10. I suspect that many of these stocks ended their days warming German hearths in the cold winters of the 1920's.
I've heard from many Navy collectors that they have had to wait years before one appeared on the market, and when it did they had to pay through the nose to get it. Needless to say they have become an almost irresistible target to fakers.
Norm

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Norme

I imagine that those reading this thread who are not themselves Navy Luger collectors must be wondering what all the fuss is about. Quite simply, Navy stocks are rare, very rare. Even though they were produced in equal numbers to the guns, their survival ratio is far lower, perhaps less than 1:10. I suspect that many of these stocks ended their days warming German hearths in the cold winters of the 1920's.
I've heard from many Navy collectors that they have had to wait years before one appeared on the market, and when it did they had to pay through the nose to get it. Needless to say they have become an almost irresistible target to fakers.
Norm

True,
but in terms anyone can understand:
A big luger dealer has an original for sale for $3,000; reproductions will sell for $150 to $300-

[m1903a3]

Another explanation of their rarity may lie at the feet of the US Federal bureaucracy. Stocks, both Navy and Artillery, were commonly imported into the US as accessories by many retailers in the years after WWI. Ads for Lugers and stocks were so common as to be virtually ubiquitous in firearms and sporting publications.

But when Congress passed the National Firearms Act in 1934 they made short barreled rifles suddenly very expensive to own and somewhat onerous to register, effectively killing the market for stocks and no doubt leading to the destruction of many existing ones.

The C&R status and removal of Luger stocks from the NFA when used with the correct pistol (e.g. Navy stock only on Navy Luger) certainly has lead to significantly increased interest and corresponding higher prices. That in turn has resulted in makers like CMR offering inexpensive replicas for forty years or so. It also attracted criminals like Shattuck who turned out fakes to sell to unsuspecting collectors.

For the many who desire a complete rig, the ability to acquire a replica stock, holster, pouch and strap for $500-600 is great. But the fact that a genuine rig is ten times that price is an irresistible opportunity for the unscrupulous.

[wlyon]

Seems like we are never going to get out of the shadow of Ralph Shattuck. What a shame. Why he chose to be crooked is hard to explain. Bill

[JBBOOKS]

I read with interest the various responses to this topic. As I am new to the world of Luger, who is/was Ralph Shattuck? From what I can gather he produced fakes. Can anyone provide more information?

[Norme]

Originally Posted by JBBOOKS

I read with interest the various responses to this topic. As I am new to the world of Luger, who is/was Ralph Shattuck? From what I can gather he produced fakes. Can anyone provide more information?

Hi Art,
Ralph Shattuck was an important collector, dealer and authority on Lugers, and most long time collectors, myself included, liked him, trusted him and did business with him. He passed away in 2010.
As you know, it's considered inappropriate to speak ill of the dead (De mortuis nil nisi bonum), nevertheless it's a sad fact that many of the faked and boosted Lugers one encounters today, at one time or another passed through Ralph Shattuck's hands.
Norm

[m1903a3]

At last years NAPCA convention a gentleman was referred to me to evaluate his 1917 Navy P.04.

After careful examinination, I regretfully had to tell him it was a fake. He took the news well, and asked me to go over the reasons I said it was fake, which I did. Then he told me that his late wife had gone to the well known "important collector, dealer and authority" to buy a surprise 50th wedding anniversary present for him. So Shattuck sold her a fake.

It really broke my heart when he told me it was a special gift from his wife. I have absolutely no problem speaking ill of a villian who would do a thing like that.

[m1903a3]

Originally Posted by wlyon

Seems like we are never going to get out of the shadow of Ralph Shattuck. What a shame. Why he chose to be crooked is hard to explain. Bill

Nah, easiest answer in the world. Greed.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by m1903a3

Nah, easiest answer in the world. Greed.

Yes,
Greed and the ego boost that they "feel" when they get one over on someone, JMHO.

The P.T.Barnum of lugers.

[JBBOOKS]

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Art,
Ralph Shattuck was an important collector, dealer and authority on Lugers, and most long time collectors, myself included, liked him, trusted him and did business with him. He passed away in 2010.
As you know, it's considered inappropriate to speak ill of the dead (De mortuis nil nisi bonum), nevertheless it's a sad fact that many of the faked and boosted Lugers one encounters today, at one time or another passed through Ralph Shattuck's hands.
Norm

Wow I had no idea. Too bad he went down the path he did. Thanks for the information

[wlyon]

The problem now is nobody wants anything he had anything to do with. I am sure he had legitimate pieces. But he had so many of his "made ups" his whole collection is suspect. He didn't limit his fakes to just lugers. He also sold fake holsters. From what I understand he didn't need the money. Obviously he just enjoyed pawning off fakes on the unsuspecting. All who met him thought he was a great guy. A wolf in sheep's clothing. He is gone now but his deception will linger in the collecting world for years. Sad. Bill

[JBBOOKS]

Very sad indeed

[Lugerdoc]

I don't know if we can accuse RS of manufacturing fakes, but any large dealer who purchases many large collections, is bound to end up with some ringers. At most, I would say that Ralph's description weren't always accurate. TH

[DonVoigt]

Sorry to continue hi-jacking the thread, but I think we can say for sure RS knew enough to know a fake when he saw it, and did not mind selling them along to the next ignorant guy in line.