Identification Request

KutzB · 12-30-2008, 03:55 PM

Hey guys, a newbie here and perhaps you can help me with some research. I recently came into possession of a nice Luger, and now I'm trying to figure out some of its history. Sorry I can't post pictures, but my digital camera is on the fritz! Here is what I know/understand to date:

* Toggle Inscription is "DWM".
* There is no Chamber Inscription.
* Toggle Knob Type is round/knurled.
* No grip safety.
* Stock Lug is present.
* Caliber is 7.65
* Grips are walnut, checkered, no border, no insignia.
* Thumb safety is Type 3, shows safe (GESICHERT) when pulled down.
* Extractor is marked GELADEN on the side.
* Barrel is 3 13/16" from forward end of extractor to muzzle.
* Fixed front and rear sighs. Very small "V" in rear sight with no markings on sights.
* Magazine is aluminum with aluminum bottom. No markings whatsoever on the magazine.
* Serial number is 3077, with 77 stamped on smaller parts (Details below).
* Overall condition I'd estimate at 95%, with very good to excellent strawing. Bore is good.

MARKINGS

Barrel Extension has the following markings:

Serial Number 3077 on front left side (no letters)
Eagle over/N-front right side (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 5, #57)

Frame has the following markings:

Serial Number 3077 stamped on front part of frame under barrel (no letters)
Very tiny letters S,Q,T,J,R, and F stamped at various locations on frame edge under grips

Number 77 is stamped on smaller parts as follows:

Extractor-top center
Trigger Side Plate-bottom right corner
Locking Bolt-on face (knurled knob side)
Center Toggle Link-top rear
Rear Toggle Link-end (below rear sight)
Sear Bar-left side, rear
Safety Engagement Link-left side, top
Grips, Left and Right-inside surface

Barrel has the following markings (bottom rear):

7.65
The capitol letter "A"
The number 3077
Eagle over/N (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 5, #57)
Eagle over/J (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 6, #61)
Letters "?"g.ranrmann ("?" is garbled)-Very small letters, not capitalized

Breach Block has the following markings (left and right side):

Eagle (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 2, #14)

Grips-inside Left and Right:

The number 3077 in pencil
The stamped capitol letter "A"
The stamped number "77"
The stamped letter "O" (perhaps lower case?)

This pistol came with a Luger holster. A date stamp is on the inside, and it looks like either 1915, 1916, or 1918. I suppose it could also be 1913, but I'm just not sure. Very hard to read. There might be some kind of manufacturer's name on the inside as well, but I can't be sure. No other markings on the holster, which by the way has a tool pouch and magazine holder. The tool is missing as is the spare magazine...Bummer!

While I've seen nicer pistols, this one is in excellent condition, showing very little obvious wear and tear. One thing I did notice, this particular pistol does not appear to have any "witness marks" as referenced elsewhere on this site. Not sure that has any bearing on anything, but I'm mentioning it here for what it is worth.

Based on what I've been able to find out, I'm guessing this pistol was manufactured by DWM between 1914 and 1918, was refurbished sometime after that (when or by whom, I'm not exactly sure), and then went on to see service in WWII. I've been told it has been in a vault since being brought back to this country after the war in 1945. But based on what I've learned so far about these little puppies, I could be completely wrong, and that is where you guys can help this old guy out! So give me your two cents worth!

I'd appreciate any information anyone could offer me with regard to the above. I'll be hitting the book section of a local gun show the weekend after next (1/10/09), so if you have any recommendations as to some good reference works I'd appreciate that as well.

Thanking you in advance, and sorry I don't have pictures. Maybe I can get some posted if and when I get my danged camera fixed!

John Sabato · 12-31-2008, 09:15 AM

Sounds like a commecial Luger to me that was pressed into military service... The garbled word looks to me that it could be stamped with the country of origin (Germany), which would have been necessary on an imported commercial pistol

As to books to buy... do a forum search on "books" and you will find many threads on this subject. Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Edward Tinker · 12-31-2008, 02:05 PM

I'd actually expect to see this on the left side; Eagle over/N-front right side (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 5, #57)

But it sounds like a commercial pistol, made for the commericial market. It is possible it was refurbed and re-proofed, but usually that didn't happen, it might receive additional proofing, but usually not scrubbing of old IMHO.

Ed

Lugerdoc · 01-01-2009, 11:23 AM

Sound like a '20 commerical that has been non-factory reworked (E/J) and reproofed (E/N) post 1940. Depending on the type of eagle, it could be a post WW2 rework. Some clear close up photos would be necessary to further identify. I'm surprised that when reworked, it wasn't rebarrel to 9MMP. TH

KutzB · 01-02-2009, 10:41 AM

John, Edward, and Luger Doc... Thank you for your input. I'm going to keep working on what this is, and if I can get my camera fixed and get it to take some good pics I'll post them here. Hope you guys had a happy new year! Thanks again!

12-31-2008, 09:15 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Sounds like a commecial Luger to me that was pressed into military service... The garbled word looks to me that it could be stamped with the country of origin (Germany), which would have been necessary on an imported commercial pistol As to books to buy... do a forum search on "books" and you will find many threads on this subject. Welcome to the Lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-31-2008, 02:05 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I'd actually expect to see this on the left side; Eagle over/N-front right side (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 5, #57) But it sounds like a commercial pistol, made for the commericial market. It is possible it was refurbed and re-proofed, but usually that didn't happen, it might receive additional proofing, but usually not scrubbing of old IMHO. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-01-2009, 11:23 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Sound like a '20 commerical that has been non-factory reworked (E/J) and reproofed (E/N) post 1940. Depending on the type of eagle, it could be a post WW2 rework. Some clear close up photos would be necessary to further identify. I'm surprised that when reworked, it wasn't rebarrel to 9MMP. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-30-2008, 03:55 PM	#1
KutzB New User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Identification Request Hey guys, a newbie here and perhaps you can help me with some research. I recently came into possession of a nice Luger, and now I'm trying to figure out some of its history. Sorry I can't post pictures, but my digital camera is on the fritz! Here is what I know/understand to date: * Toggle Inscription is "DWM". * There is no Chamber Inscription. * Toggle Knob Type is round/knurled. * No grip safety. * Stock Lug is present. * Caliber is 7.65 * Grips are walnut, checkered, no border, no insignia. * Thumb safety is Type 3, shows safe (GESICHERT) when pulled down. * Extractor is marked GELADEN on the side. * Barrel is 3 13/16" from forward end of extractor to muzzle. * Fixed front and rear sighs. Very small "V" in rear sight with no markings on sights. * Magazine is aluminum with aluminum bottom. No markings whatsoever on the magazine. * Serial number is 3077, with 77 stamped on smaller parts (Details below). * Overall condition I'd estimate at 95%, with very good to excellent strawing. Bore is good. MARKINGS Barrel Extension has the following markings: Serial Number 3077 on front left side (no letters) Eagle over/N-front right side (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 5, #57) Frame has the following markings: Serial Number 3077 stamped on front part of frame under barrel (no letters) Very tiny letters S,Q,T,J,R, and F stamped at various locations on frame edge under grips Number 77 is stamped on smaller parts as follows: Extractor-top center Trigger Side Plate-bottom right corner Locking Bolt-on face (knurled knob side) Center Toggle Link-top rear Rear Toggle Link-end (below rear sight) Sear Bar-left side, rear Safety Engagement Link-left side, top Grips, Left and Right-inside surface Barrel has the following markings (bottom rear): 7.65 The capitol letter "A" The number 3077 Eagle over/N (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 5, #57) Eagle over/J (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 6, #61) Letters "?"g.ranrmann ("?" is garbled)-Very small letters, not capitalized Breach Block has the following markings (left and right side): Eagle (See Markings on Luger Forum-Proof 2, #14) Grips-inside Left and Right: The number 3077 in pencil The stamped capitol letter "A" The stamped number "77" The stamped letter "O" (perhaps lower case?) This pistol came with a Luger holster. A date stamp is on the inside, and it looks like either 1915, 1916, or 1918. I suppose it could also be 1913, but I'm just not sure. Very hard to read. There might be some kind of manufacturer's name on the inside as well, but I can't be sure. No other markings on the holster, which by the way has a tool pouch and magazine holder. The tool is missing as is the spare magazine...Bummer! While I've seen nicer pistols, this one is in excellent condition, showing very little obvious wear and tear. One thing I did notice, this particular pistol does not appear to have any "witness marks" as referenced elsewhere on this site. Not sure that has any bearing on anything, but I'm mentioning it here for what it is worth. Based on what I've been able to find out, I'm guessing this pistol was manufactured by DWM between 1914 and 1918, was refurbished sometime after that (when or by whom, I'm not exactly sure), and then went on to see service in WWII. I've been told it has been in a vault since being brought back to this country after the war in 1945. But based on what I've learned so far about these little puppies, I could be completely wrong, and that is where you guys can help this old guy out! So give me your two cents worth! I'd appreciate any information anyone could offer me with regard to the above. I'll be hitting the book section of a local gun show the weekend after next (1/10/09), so if you have any recommendations as to some good reference works I'd appreciate that as well. Thanking you in advance, and sorry I don't have pictures. Maybe I can get some posted if and when I get my danged camera fixed!

01-02-2009, 10:41 AM	#5
KutzB New User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Edward, and Luger Doc... Thank you for your input. I'm going to keep working on what this is, and if I can get my camera fixed and get it to take some good pics I'll post them here. Hope you guys had a happy new year! Thanks again!