"P" Privatization question

[Hueydriver]

You see some Swiss lugers with the P xx and some without. I realize the soldier that chose to keep his weapon upon leaving the military had a P-date stamp to signify release. Were the pistols without the "P" sold directly by the military, and if they were, why then did'nt they get a "P" before they went out the door? Also wondering what the ratio of with/without is. If anyone cares to WAG. Fun to explore all the different aspects associated with the Swiss lugers. Seems to me the Swiss soldier took great care and pride in his weapon.

Thanks, Jesse

[Pete Ebbink]

Jesse,

Here are my guesses...I am hoping some of our Swiss members who live in CH and elsewhere may correct me if my guesses are wrong.

As to your 2nd. question : I am not sure if it is known which lugers went home with retiring soldiers and which ones were eventually sold on the surplus arms market sale. I would suspect the Swiss would have keep meticulous records but I have not seen mention of such records (if they still survive).

As to your 1st. question : Ordnance lugers were clearly marked with Swiss Ordnance inspector stampings and after 1909, all Ordnance lugers, only, had the Swiss cross/shield chamber marking.

So it would be pretty easy for officers and administrators in the field and elsewhere to know an Ordnance luger from a privately owned one or a commercial one.

If a retiring soldier/officer decided to keep his luger (as I understand at no cost to him) it was private release stamped. I think this was done so others in the future could spot a current Ordnance luger from one taken out of service and given to the retiree. If a current officer or Ordnance amorer got a P-released luger in his hands, mistakenly, he would know immediately that this gun was taken out of Ordnance use and should not be in their current inventory. Maybe a retried gun mistakenly made its way back into service with a son of a retire soldier or officer. I would think the Swiss Ordnance folks would only want "current" Ordnance pistols in their ranks and not be responsible for old, retired ones mistakenly creeping back into the Ordnance hardware inventory. The P-release stamping might just have been a QA/QC stamping so such retired lugers could be spotted easily and kept out of the Ordnance inventory.

As I understand, if a retiring soldier or officer did not decide he wanted to keep his luger when he left the CH service, his gun was returned to the Ordnance arsenal, possibly reworked mechanically and/or cosmetically if this was needed, probably had some safety checks done on the luger, and then the luger was re-issued to the next soldier/officer. It is possible one luger stayed in Ordnance use for many, many years and was issued and used by many Swiss soldiers/officers.

As the lugers were eventually replaced by the SIG pistol in around 1949, all lugers still in Ordnance use were taken away from current active duty staff who were then issued the new SIG sidearm. Those lugers remaining in service after 1949 were then sold off to the surplus arms trade and market. It may have taken a couple of years for all the Old Ordnance lugers to be recalled from the field and get replace with the new SIG sidearm.

Once these old Ordnance lugers were sold off to the surplus arms market, there was no need to P-release stamp them...as the Swiss Ordnance was through with them and no longer needed to track lugers in current Ordnance use versus the previously "gifted" lugers old retirees received. In other words, the luger becomes 100% obsolete and the Ordnance folks no longer had to worry about them.

In closing...my comments above are just WAG's...I have no documentation to support this...but it makes common sense and seems simple.

[Hueydriver]

Hey Pete,
Thanks for the reply. So when the Swiss switched to the Sig, the Luger was deemed obselete and sold out as military surplus. Probably sold in lots, ( Always a day late.....). I'm just glad the Swiss govt sold them and we are able to able to enjoy them, as they are a delight to have and admire.
Jesse

[Pete Ebbink]

I suspect the switch from lugers to the SIG sidearm was a gradual transition.

[Hueydriver]

Does anyone have a guesstimate of ratio of Swiss lugers with "P" to those without. One of my books says harder to find without "P", don't know if thats true.
Thanks, Jesse

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, Your "WAGs" approximate my thinking on this subject and sound quite reasonable, from what I have read. TH

[the gunman]

Pete very well put. sure makes a lot of sence to me.

[Pete Ebbink]

Jesse,

I prefer not to have any Pee on my Swiss lugers...

Seriously, I do not know if the ratio is documented or known...most publicized Swiss luger serial number tables do not track if a gun was P'd or not...

[Hueydriver]

Thanks Pete,

I was just wondering. I suppose from the pure collector standpoint it is nicer without the Pee, in original as issued condition. Though Swiss luger history wise, the Pee is part of the gun's heritage. If that makes any sence. Anyway I guess it would'nt matter to me.

Cheers, Jesse

[panda]

I haven't got much to add, just one little correction:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink

As the lugers were eventually replaced by the SIG pistol in around 1949, all lugers still in Ordnance use were taken away from current active duty staff who were then issued the new SIG sidearm.

Unlike the riffles, the handguns are not "updated". Normally, an officer (except probably professional instructors) keeps the same gun until they retire.

[Pete Ebbink]

Panda,

Thanks for the additional info !

[panda]

I've just checked Rutsch's book (1978). On page 247, last paragraph, he makes the following statement about the release of the military 06/29:

There will be a number of years from now until the last parabellum is released and privatised. This legendary weapon will then continue its life with the numerous shooters around the world and safely kept and maintained in the hands of collectors!



PS Pete: interesting theory of yours about the purpose of the "P" ;->

[NavyLugerLover]

If the "P" is before serial number i.e. "P xxxxxx", this (1929) gun has been made for Privat use.
If there is a "P" letter with or without a date, gun has been sold or given for Privat use.

[Pete Ebbink]

Yes...also on the M1929 luger...on the rear toggle, a P will be just above the serial number. Also the indication that such a M1929 luger is a commercial-sale one and not an Ordnance pistol.

But I have had to the chance to see 2 M1929 lugers in the P-commercial serial number range with Ordnance military stamps.

Maybe this was a private purchase by an officer and the gun had to be inspected/proofed before it was allowed for military service ???

[bofo]

Hi Pete,

Swiss Officers equiped with 06/29 Lugers never had to buy their gun themselves! A gun in the P number range (P before the serial number) was always sold outside the army. The BP proofs indicate that the gun may be used at official swiss shooting matches (i.e. Feldschiessen). They are even on police pistols!

Private guns never have been officially allowed for military service, although it will almost never be checked *g*

Tom.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your informative posting.

About 2 years ago, I did have a chance to buy a M1929 Brown P-commerical luger in person at a gun shop in Michigan State.

What was curious is that this luger had 2-3 little Swiss cross inspection marks on it...in addition to the BP stamping. Side of barrel, left side of receiver, and top of rear toggle link. the BP was along the shoulder of the barrel where it screws into the receiver.

Possibly this one went through an official arsenal repair at some point in time ???

I was not lucky to buy this gun as the Owner and I were about $ 800 apart in our opinions as what the gun was worth. Since he Owned the gun, it was really only his opinion that mattered...

Unfortunately, I was on a business trip and did not have my camera. When I returned about 3 weeks later, the gun was sold.

[Vlim]

Pete,

I recently bought a 1963 Swiss army pistol manual, which still described the Luger in detail, next to it's followup the SIG P210 / Model 1949. So I expect that although manufacture ended in 1949 the Swiss lugers enjoyed a long service life afterwards.

Had some fun with the manual at our local shooting club which is quite full of people who believe the SIG P210 is the best military pistol available. The side-by-side comparison in the Swiss manual proved the opposite, the luger performed marginally better, had a better penetration, larger sightbase and less weight

[bofo]

Hi Pete, Hi G.,

I think that the Swiss cross doesn't have any meaning. I own several P210 with the BP marks and Swiss crosses although they are police pistols with a P serial number and never have been in army service.

The lifecycle of the Lugers in the Swiss army is like this:
Last Lugers issued to officers about 1950 (the P210 came in 1950 as P49). Officers have been promoted at the age of aprox. 22 (service in Switzerland begins at the age of 20). Service duration of an officer was about 33 years ('till the age of 55), so the last Lugers left army service in the 80ties. Normally, officers kept their personal sidearm for the whole service time! After service, they could keep it for free. The P mark was added then, first with two digit year and later P without year; sometimes, the P mark has been forgotten.

In the 90ties the Swiss army sold 06/29 Lugers for 1200 Swiss Franks (aprox 900$) directly to collectors. Also some spare parts have been sold *g*

BTW, the P210 IS the best service pistol! Did you ever have to shoot 6 rounds in 1 minute and the f****** Luger (Swiss 1900) jammed after the first? So one hit and five times zero... It was at a Feldschiessen in the 90ties and since then I'm using a P210 for events where only Swiss army pistols are allowed...

The new swiss army pistol (SIG P220 or P75) is designed for 25m and it has definitively no fun factor.

Tom.

[bofo]

Here some pictures of a SIG Sauer P228 which I bought brand new in the early nineties. This weapon was never in service but has the BP mark, so it may be used in army shooting matches.

Regards,
Tom

This picture: front part of slide

[bofo]

And the barrel through the ejector window.