Erma Subcalibre set: getting there

Vlim · 02-04-2010, 12:11 PM

Thanks to Ed I'm one step closer to completing a .22lr setup for my P08.

The first tests went well, and with the stock attached it is a real tack driver, very accurate.

Accessories in the picture include the Erma M30 .22lr system, a copy of the 1936 Erma sales brochure, a photo of a German soldier using the M30 and perhaps the rarest of subcalibre accessories: the RG34a, a cleaning kit based on the RG34 but meant for cleaning subcalibre systems.

Enjoy (I did

).

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2010, 12:14 PM

Outstanding! Just need a couple of magazines now

Ed

Ice · 02-04-2010, 04:56 PM

That is a really nice set. Though I haven't a kit for a Luger, I have sub-caliber kits for several other pistols and use them regularly. The rarest of which is a .22 conversion for a Makarov.

Charlie

Vlim · 02-09-2010, 11:53 AM

Forum member G.T. was kind enough to get me a magazine for the set, so here are some preliminary observations, as it is the first set I got to handle freely

Initially I didn't understand why the ejector spring should have been removed permanently, as the toggle action of the set clears the ejector spring in a way that suggest that it was designed with the ejector in mind. Of course, for placing the barrel, the ejector must be removed.

After I got the magazine I noticed why the ejector is indeed best removed: The magazine is a complicated little device that not only serves as a magazine, but it also doubles as an ejector and a holdopen device. Truly a 3-in-one design. Clever.

What I also liked about the design is the inclusion of a spring loaded receiver stop. The construction of the firing pin is somewhat complex and also the extractor design is a bit overengineered.

Some 50 test rounds showed that even without a magazine to serve as an ejector the pistol would actually eject the rounds about 50% of the time, so I expect that with the magazine it will function much better. It is a pity that the barrel insert only supports 9mm barrels, it would have been fun to be able to install it in a .30 luger variation as well.

Shooting cheap lead bullet .22lr rounds does produce an unwanted side effect. The inside of the pistol's frame looks like it was never cleaned in 70 years, just after shooting one box

So a good cleaning set is a requisite if you shoot the .22lr set regularly.

All in all I am pleasantly surprised by the design and the accuracy it produces at the range. No wonder that Mauser seriously contemplated reviving the .22lr version as part of their post war Parabellum range in the 1970s.

mauro · 02-09-2010, 02:25 PM

Gerben,
I like the set!

Well done.

Mauro

Vlim · 02-11-2010, 09:09 AM

Wel, got to fight to get to the range through some serious snow on icy roads but it was worth the effort.

With standard CCI standard velocity .22lr (the stuff we sell at the club range) the pistol performed almost flawlessly. On 50 rounds I had to close the toggle manually once, as the round didn't feed all the way. Repeating was outstandig, ejection of the rounds went perfect and the accuracy is still quite impressive.

I also tried a couple of 'American Eagle' high velocity rounds, but they don't work very well. It seems that the Erma set is balanced on standard velocity rounds, so I will stick to the CCI's for now.

RWS · 02-25-2010, 06:06 PM

Vlim, maybe you need some original .22lfb ammo from 1943 to test it. Very accurate after 67 years.

Vlim · 04-30-2010, 11:16 AM

A small update.

An interesting design feature that I hadn't noticed before became obvious at the range last week. After firing some 25 shots, I had a failure to extract the last round. Nothing curious, as it can happen. When I put down the gun, I noticed somethig odd: The barrel insert was missing. Had another look and saw that the chamber side of the insert was still there.

Puzzled, I started my search down the indoor range and found that the barrel insert had launched itself from the barrel, landing some 5 yards further.

The barrel insert is actually not a 1-piece deal, but rather a separate barrel that has been press fitted into the chamber part. I included a detail scan of an Erma drawing of the set. The red part is the barrel, the yellow part is the one-piece chamber insert.

It seems that, for some reason, the insert had worked it's way loose and the pressure of the last round was enough to launch both the round and the barrel insert forwards (the round exited the barrel insert normally).

I think that this design feature really isn't such a good idea. I pressed the barrel back into place and will do some further testing to see if it works loose again. It should be easy to find a way to fixate the barrel to the chamber part, and I wonder why Erma cut corners here?

Or perhaps the barrel insert will work it's way out every 75 years

alanint · 04-30-2010, 11:34 AM

Charlie, (ICE)
I hate to rain on your Makarov subcaliber kit, but Sportsmansguide is selling complete Makarov subcaliber kits in a fitted case for $239.97

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=647739

Vlim · 04-30-2010, 11:45 AM

Even more fun is the electronic training device for the Makarov.

alanint · 04-30-2010, 01:54 PM

Interesting...
Does it function with beam of light on a sensitive target technology?

Vlim · 04-30-2010, 04:56 PM

It's just an elaborate light switch, really. The flash is really bright. No idea about the use of light sensitive targets.

Vlim · 06-06-2010, 08:59 AM

Back to the .22lr stuff.

I picked up a pretty old box of DWM / BKIW .22lr dating from the 1920s. Giveways are the company name on the box 'Berlin Karlsruhe Industrie Werke A.-G. früher Deutsche Waffen -u Munitionsfabriken Karlsruhe i B' and the relatively small box size. They made the box as small as possible while still being able to stuff 50 rounds in it. With 64 x 34mm it is quite a bit smaller than it's later 72 x 37mm counterpart.

G.T. · 06-06-2010, 02:25 PM

Gerben, it the .22 conv. kit barrel is not solid after repair, drop me a note... as I still have some "magic" left in my little parts bucket!

.. best to you, til...lat'r...GT

Vlim · 06-06-2010, 03:21 PM

GT, you are too kind!! I'll keep it in mind (still have to call my gun smith to check if he made any progress).

Ice · 06-06-2010, 04:25 PM

Alan, that is interesting to know. I might get another kit even. The one I have now was bought new for $125.00 back several years ago. I wonder where SG is getting their kits or if they are new production.

Its new production; I looked.

Thanks!

Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Charlie, (ICE)
I hate to rain on your Makarov subcaliber kit, but Sportsmansguide is selling complete Makarov subcaliber kits in a fitted case for $239.97

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=647739

Ice · 06-06-2010, 04:26 PM

Dang it! I sold a complete Interarms .22 conversion kit for a 4" 9mm back several years ago. At least it went to a good home.

Charlie

G.T. · 06-06-2010, 04:52 PM

Hi Gerben, don't put to much into it... I'll take care of you... let me know.. best to all, til...lat'r...GT

02-04-2010, 12:11 PM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Erma Subcalibre set: getting there Thanks to Ed I'm one step closer to completing a .22lr setup for my P08. The first tests went well, and with the stock attached it is a real tack driver, very accurate. Accessories in the picture include the Erma M30 .22lr system, a copy of the 1936 Erma sales brochure, a photo of a German soldier using the M30 and perhaps the rarest of subcalibre accessories: the RG34a, a cleaning kit based on the RG34 but meant for cleaning subcalibre systems. Enjoy (I did ). Attached Thumbnails

02-04-2010, 12:14 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Outstanding! Just need a couple of magazines now Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-09-2010, 02:25 PM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Gerben, I like the set! Well done. Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

04-30-2010, 11:16 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	A small update. An interesting design feature that I hadn't noticed before became obvious at the range last week. After firing some 25 shots, I had a failure to extract the last round. Nothing curious, as it can happen. When I put down the gun, I noticed somethig odd: The barrel insert was missing. Had another look and saw that the chamber side of the insert was still there. Puzzled, I started my search down the indoor range and found that the barrel insert had launched itself from the barrel, landing some 5 yards further. The barrel insert is actually not a 1-piece deal, but rather a separate barrel that has been press fitted into the chamber part. I included a detail scan of an Erma drawing of the set. The red part is the barrel, the yellow part is the one-piece chamber insert. It seems that, for some reason, the insert had worked it's way loose and the pressure of the last round was enough to launch both the round and the barrel insert forwards (the round exited the barrel insert normally). I think that this design feature really isn't such a good idea. I pressed the barrel back into place and will do some further testing to see if it works loose again. It should be easy to find a way to fixate the barrel to the chamber part, and I wonder why Erma cut corners here? Or perhaps the barrel insert will work it's way out every 75 years Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

04-30-2010, 11:45 AM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Even more fun is the electronic training device for the Makarov. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

02-04-2010, 04:56 PM	#3
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	That is a really nice set. Though I haven't a kit for a Luger, I have sub-caliber kits for several other pistols and use them regularly. The rarest of which is a .22 conversion for a Makarov. Charlie

02-09-2010, 11:53 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Forum member G.T. was kind enough to get me a magazine for the set, so here are some preliminary observations, as it is the first set I got to handle freely Initially I didn't understand why the ejector spring should have been removed permanently, as the toggle action of the set clears the ejector spring in a way that suggest that it was designed with the ejector in mind. Of course, for placing the barrel, the ejector must be removed. After I got the magazine I noticed why the ejector is indeed best removed: The magazine is a complicated little device that not only serves as a magazine, but it also doubles as an ejector and a holdopen device. Truly a 3-in-one design. Clever. What I also liked about the design is the inclusion of a spring loaded receiver stop. The construction of the firing pin is somewhat complex and also the extractor design is a bit overengineered. Some 50 test rounds showed that even without a magazine to serve as an ejector the pistol would actually eject the rounds about 50% of the time, so I expect that with the magazine it will function much better. It is a pity that the barrel insert only supports 9mm barrels, it would have been fun to be able to install it in a .30 luger variation as well. Shooting cheap lead bullet .22lr rounds does produce an unwanted side effect. The inside of the pistol's frame looks like it was never cleaned in 70 years, just after shooting one box So a good cleaning set is a requisite if you shoot the .22lr set regularly. All in all I am pleasantly surprised by the design and the accuracy it produces at the range. No wonder that Mauser seriously contemplated reviving the .22lr version as part of their post war Parabellum range in the 1970s.

02-11-2010, 09:09 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Wel, got to fight to get to the range through some serious snow on icy roads but it was worth the effort. With standard CCI standard velocity .22lr (the stuff we sell at the club range) the pistol performed almost flawlessly. On 50 rounds I had to close the toggle manually once, as the round didn't feed all the way. Repeating was outstandig, ejection of the rounds went perfect and the accuracy is still quite impressive. I also tried a couple of 'American Eagle' high velocity rounds, but they don't work very well. It seems that the Erma set is balanced on standard velocity rounds, so I will stick to the CCI's for now.

02-25-2010, 06:06 PM	#7
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Vlim, maybe you need some original .22lfb ammo from 1943 to test it. Very accurate after 67 years.

04-30-2010, 11:34 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Charlie, (ICE) I hate to rain on your Makarov subcaliber kit, but Sportsmansguide is selling complete Makarov subcaliber kits in a fitted case for $239.97 http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=647739

04-30-2010, 01:54 PM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Interesting... Does it function with beam of light on a sensitive target technology?

04-30-2010, 04:56 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	It's just an elaborate light switch, really. The flash is really bright. No idea about the use of light sensitive targets.

06-06-2010, 08:59 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Back to the .22lr stuff. I picked up a pretty old box of DWM / BKIW .22lr dating from the 1920s. Giveways are the company name on the box 'Berlin Karlsruhe Industrie Werke A.-G. früher Deutsche Waffen -u Munitionsfabriken Karlsruhe i B' and the relatively small box size. They made the box as small as possible while still being able to stuff 50 rounds in it. With 64 x 34mm it is quite a bit smaller than it's later 72 x 37mm counterpart. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

06-06-2010, 02:25 PM	#14
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	spare parts... Gerben, it the .22 conv. kit barrel is not solid after repair, drop me a note... as I still have some "magic" left in my little parts bucket! .. best to you, til...lat'r...GT

06-06-2010, 03:21 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	GT, you are too kind!! I'll keep it in mind (still have to call my gun smith to check if he made any progress).

06-06-2010, 04:26 PM	#17
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Dang it! I sold a complete Interarms .22 conversion kit for a 4" 9mm back several years ago. At least it went to a good home. Charlie

06-06-2010, 04:52 PM	#18
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	kit bbl... Hi Gerben, don't put to much into it... I'll take care of you... let me know.. best to all, til...lat'r...GT