Help me identify this Luger -

[45Wheelgun]

I have in my possession a Luger which was brought to me by a dear friend who knows less than I do about Lugers. I am posting here to ask the experts for help in identification.

First off it looks way to nice to not be a refinish. So unless someone with more knowledge tells me otherwise I assume it is a refinished gun. Having said that, the edges and markings are all sharp and clear and I can find no evidence of a reblue. The "straw" colored parts are also "to good" in my opinion.

The gun doesn't appear to have all the markings of other Lugers I have found on the net. The barrel and frame share a serial number. The magazine has a non matching number which appears to be over stamped with another non matching number. All the other parts except the take down lever are marked with the number "26", including the grips. There are no markings on the right side of the gun. There are several small markings under the grip which I did not photograph. Under the safety it is marked: Gesichert

There are various proof marks and I will show photos of them. There are not as many parts serial numbered as guns I see pictures on the net. Also the serial number is in the 51 thousands without an Alpha character in the number.

From reviewing some of the posts here I am assuming this is an early commercial gun. I assume it is somewhat of a parts gun as well?

So here are the pictures - What do I have? If possible from the information I have provided, to estimate a value range?

Thank you all for any information you can provide.

Dave

[DavidJayUden]

Commercial Luger, mismatched toggle, restamped magazine. From what I can see it is an original finish.
Is it numbered on the lower edge of the side plate and takedown lever?
Regarding value, assuming it is 9mm, maybe $600-$800 as a shooter.
dju

[45Wheelgun]

It has a symbol and 57 on the take down lever. Forgive my ignorance but I am unclear as to what a side plate is on this gun. I know exactly what that is on a S&W.

Thank you for you help.

Dave

[lugersrkewl]

sideplate is the big square above trigger #39 on diagram, nice luger thanks for pics

[45Wheelgun]

No serial number on the sideplate. I had assumed that was the part you were referring to, but I figured it was better to ask. Is it possible to estimate the date of manufacture?

[alanint]

The matched lower and upper frames, barrel and small parts were all made sometime between 1906 and 1913. Features like the early style bore gauge would make it towards the earlier part of that time frame. The commercial pistol experts on the site can give you a closer date of production using your serial number. The upper, barreled frame and matched, lower frame come from a "BUG" proofed commercial pistol. The finish is original on these parts and in very good condition.

The absolute shame on an otherwise nice gun is the mismatched, WW2 era Mauser toggle train. This was either switched inadvertantly by a previous owner or it is replacing the original toggle train due to damage.

All in all, a very nice shooter which has a small chance of being restored by finding an original, matched commercial toggle train.

[45Wheelgun]

Thank you all for the insight.

The side plate is a serial number match to the frame and barrel. I didn't have good enough light last night to see it.

Can I safely assume with the caliber marking on the barrel that this is a 9mm, or is there a question about that with this being a parts gun?

What intrigues me is with the exception of the take down lever, all of the non matching parts, match each other with serial number 26 including the grips. Almost as if someone took two guns and made one. Are there small internal parts that would be numbered as well?

Thanks for letting me know this is original finish. Whenever I see a 100 year old "parts gun" in this great shape, I assume it to be a refinish. I am happy to be corrected.

If I were to look for a period correct magazine, what should I be looking for and how much should I expect to pay for a correct magazine for this gun?

I guess all that is left to do is take it to the range and see how she shoots!

Thanks again,
Dave

PS: So which one of you has a great condition early commercial toggle train serial number 38 they want to sell/trade me???

[alanint]

Your gun is almost certainly a .30 Luger, not a 9mm, Take a standard, Number 2 pencil and see if it easely slides down the bore or is held by friction at the muzzle. If it easely slides down the bore, it is a 9mm, if not, then a .30 Luger. I would place a "wanted to Buy" add here, looking for an early, commercial toggle with a number 38 on it. You never know!! A complete gun would be worth much more than it is now, especially one with the original finish. An unmarked, wood bottom commercial magazine would be correct for your pistol.

[45Wheelgun]

OK, I am confused. (a natural state for me)

I had looked at the proof mark list here:

http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-1.html

and noted that Proof #2 -BUG with 118/35- was seen on 9mm guns:

"2. German commercial barrel proof. Found (with proof 3) on some 9 m/m 1902 thru 1908"

I had "assumed" that meant it was a 9mm barrel/frame when it left the factory as this gun has both proof 2 and 3 as listed on that page.

Thanks for the tip on the pencil. My daughters 4" #2 pencil drops all the way through to the chamber with the toggle locked back in the open position. Great tip to know.

Does this mean this is a 9mm Luger?

[Ron Wood]

Your Luger is definitely a 9mm as indicated by the 118,35 barrel marking. That is the old method of caliber indication. It represents the number of round lead balls 9mm in diameter requried to weigh a pound. If it was a .30 caliber (7.65mm) the marking would be 117,28.

As has been mentioned, it is indeed unfortunate that it does not have the original toggle train as your Luger is a rather scarce 1908 Commercial in 9mm. These are much more difficult to find here in the US since most 9mm Commercials here have an American Eagle chamber crest.

As an added note, it may be an optical illusion of the photograph, but it appears that your Luger may have a non-standard barrel length. I have no doubt that it is original but it seems a bit long. Could you please borrow your daughter's pencil again and with the toggle closed place the pencil down the barrel until it contacts the breechblock, then measure the depth the pencil went in from muzzle to breech face. Thank you.

[ithacaartist]

Would that be an Erfurt takedown lever? If so, it's a part from a third gun!

[45Wheelgun]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Would that be an Erfurt takedown lever? If so, it's a part from a third gun!

Not sure what an Erfurt is, but that does have a different 2 digit serial number (57) along with a proof symbol that I can't make out. Maybe a crown with a w. I don't think there is any doubt this is a parts gun. Are there any other parts that should be serial numbered I should look at?

Ron - the barrel length measured with a closed breach is exactly 4 1/16 inches long.

Gentleman, what is your opinion of the finish of the frame and barrel? Factory?

[Ron Wood]

Guess it is just an illusion (or my old eyeballs). Thanks. Barrel and frame are factory.

[45Wheelgun]

I just field stripped the gun. I found 1 additional internal part on the lower frame which matches the barrel and frame number -38 along with the "lug" of the Barrel extension/receiver (Part 17 above). The interior of the frame is not blued. All parts on the toggle train are serial numbered the same - 26.

First time I have had one of these apart. Really nicely machined. Impressive. Even more impressive, I got it back together!

[45Wheelgun]

So if I wanted to engage in the hunt for the correct toggle train, I need to know it when I see it.

Here is what I think I know:

I need an early commercial toggle train made in Germany for an '08 Luger with a serial number of 38. What would the top of the train look like. I know now it isn't an American Eagle chamber crest.

On the toggle train I have there are 3 serial numbered parts exposed. One on the extractor, one on the center toggle link and one on the rear toggle link. Would the train I need be similarly marked?

Is there anything else I should look for or ask for as I chat with "the Luger Guys" at the gun shows?

Also to be clear, this needs an early commercial magazine with a wooden base that does not have a serial number?

Thanks again guys this has been a real education.

Dave

[Dwight Gruber]

I'd say this gun dates from 1912, it is in the part of the serial range where the c/N is just beginning to show up. The strong halo on the barrel marks indicate that the frame and receiver, at least, have not been rreblued.

--Dwight

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by 45Wheelgun

Not sure what an Erfurt is, but that does have a different 2 digit serial number (57) along with a proof symbol that I can't make out. Maybe a crown with a w.

Lugers made by the Erfurt facility were primarily destined for the military, I believe. Erfurts' appropriate small parts, in addition to the serial digits, were each stamped, with a "crown over Gothic letter" by inspectors. Just theorizing as to the origin of the part from a third donor...

[alanint]

No theory, David. The takedown lever is clearly marked with an Erfurt inspector's C/L.

[lugersrkewl]

[QUOTE=45Wheelgun;227804]So if I wanted to engage in the hunt for the correct toggle train, I need to know it when I see it.

Here is what I think I know:

1.I need an early commercial toggle train made in Germany for an '08 Luger with a serial number of 38. What would the top of the train look like. I know now it isn't an American Eagle chamber crest.

1.yes it will have the dwm crest on it.

2.On the toggle train I have there are 3 serial numbered parts exposed. One on the extractor, one on the center toggle link and one on the rear toggle link. Would the train I need be similarly marked?

2.no. commercials are only serialized with last two #'s on the rear toggle link, side plate, barrel, take down lever. Im not positive but the safety lever, safety bar, trigger , hold open, safety lever, , extractor and breachblock my be serialized with last two digits of serial #.

3.Also to be clear, this needs an early commercial magazine with a wooden base that does not have a serial number?

3.yes ,commercial mags arent serialized, although some have the caliber. but if your trying to make an original piece I think you would need a take down lever thats commercial dwm with matching serial and thats needle in a haystack stuff ( maybe one mismatched part is feasible but several...) good luck

[DavidJayUden]

Please understand that even if you find the correct number parts, the gun will be regarded as "forcematched" by those in the know. You can do a lot to improve the gun but you can not make it original.
I'm just sayin'.
dju