Curious about how the law considers

[skeeter4206]

a luger with a short barrel, lets say 4", 6" or what ever artillery style lugers would have. Once the stock is added to a luger is it considered a short barrel rifle or something of that nature that would require a special license to shoot it.

I was at a gun range today and was asked that exact question by someone that was at the range whom I did not know. I bought an aftermarket shoulder stock (artillery style) and put on my 1916 - 4" barrel luger. I shoot it at that range all the time, but I never have shot it before with the shoulder stock on it. I was just curious just how much different it shot with and without the stock.

I really didn't know how to answer that question properly, so I just took it off and shot it regular until I did a little research about that subject. I didn't think I was doing anything to get in trouble, but I didn't know.

Also with carbine style lugers with short barrel lengths or any other style luger out there that would run into a situation of this matter?

thanks
Glenn barnes

[Edward Tinker]

Yes, you made an illegal short barreled rifle.

It is why batf specifies that an artillery can have a artillery stock and a navy can have a navy stock, but not vice versa. A 1900 can have an ideal stock or a bernake stock. Does it make sense, absolutely not.

[mdrumbore]

My Dad and I were having a similar discussion about this topic today. The BATFE exempts certain C&R pistols from being considered an short barreled rifle when their original military or commerial configuration provided for a shoulder stock and it is the correct style stock for that configuration as Ed has pointed out above.

[skeeter4206]

SO I COULD HAVE GOT IN REAL TROUBLE DOING WHAT I DID TODAY IF THE WRONG PERSON SAW THAT CONFIGURATION KNOWING THAT IT WAS A MISMATCHED LUGER AND STOCK TO MAKE IT SHOOT THAT WAY?

bY THE WAY, IT SHOT A HELL OF ALOT BETTER AT A DISTANCE. I WAS SHOOTING AT MY 150 YD TARGET WHICH I WAS SHOOTING MY OTHER RIFLES I HAD TODAY WITH ME AND IT WAS PRETTY DAMN CLOSE TO THE SMALL TARGETS I HAD. THERE JUST WASNT ANY CONSISTANCY WITH THE PATTERN AT THAT DISTANCE.

BUT, THATLL BE THE LAST TIME I DO THAT. I DO THANK YALL FOR THAT NEEDED INFORMATION, BUT I GOT IN REAL TROUBLE.

WHAT KIND OF TROUBLE COULD THEY HAVE DONE TO ME HAVING IT THAT WAY.

[K.Wilhelm]

Wouldn't it be great if BATF had ruled that if a Luger has a stock lug then a stock can be legally added regardless of barrel length? No wait, that would make sense-never mind!

[skeeter4206]

I kinda figured that lugers being in the curios & relics category and had the stock lug, no harm no foul. I guess i was wrong. I am damn sure glad i asked the question here, before the wrong person asked me the wrong questions.

I do thank all yall for directing me in the right direction.

[Edward Tinker]

Many people on the forums get weirded out by stocks on wrong guns, besides cut down shotguns, I have never heard of someone being charged, that said its in black n white in the batf C&R regulations.

In the 19060's there was a rash of fears that stock lugs were verbotten completely and you find lugs ground out. The word was that just owning a stock and gun was a $10,000 fine. Of course later rulings said that was not true.

Someone should do a write up and state that any four inch used for police could have a stock attached...

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Someone should do a write up and state that any four inch used for police could have a stock attached...

Ed,
Not sure what that means. Are you suggesting that someone petition the BATFE to add a stocked Police Luger to the exempt category along with LP08s, Navys, Carbines, etc.?

Unless I am out of date, I am not aware of any current regulation that permits a four inch used for police to have a stock attached.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, before the artillery and navy were petitioned, it was considered illegal wasn't it?

So yes, police used stocked four inch, so why couldn't you petition for their use! There are so many exceptions, it's pretty hard to keep track.

Items and guns get petitioned periodically, even when not fifty yrs old, like the cz82

[mrerick]

Glenn,

Creating a SBR without the appropriate registration or license is a violation of the National Firearms Act (the same one that controls fully automatic machine guns).

So here is what you're dealing with:

This law, from 1934, is separate (Title II) from the Gun Control Act (Title 1) that addresses more common firearms.

When you attach a stock to a 4 inch Luger, you become a manufacturer of a SBR. Here is a summary of the regulations:

Criminal conduct

The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, in relation to engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to (NFA)firearms without having registered or paid a Special Occupational Tax (SOT); receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.[18]
Criminal penalties

Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations.[19] A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation or trust), under the general tax evasion statute.[20] For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.[21]

[Edward Tinker]

EXCEPT for the exceptions that are spelled out in the BATF regulations.
NOTE; DID NOT COPY EVERYTHING, BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT MANY 4 OR 5 INCH BARREL GUNS ARE ALREADY EXEMPT / I.E. THE HI-POWERS, CHINESE BROOMHANDLES WITH STOCKS, ETC.

Beretta, Model 92SB with detachable folding shoulder stocks, cal. 9mm S/Ns C31509Z through
C31538Z.
Belgian, Pre-war mfd. Hi Power pistols, in cal. 9mm having tangent sights graduated to 500
meters, slotted for shoulder stock, having S/Ns of less than 47,000 without letter prefixes
or suffixes and accompanied by original Belgian mfd. detachable wooden flat board type
shoulder stocks.
Beretta, model 1923, semiautomatic pistol, in cal. 9mm Kurz (.380), accompanied by original
Italian detachable leather and metal holster/shoulder stock.
Bergmann-Bayard, model 1908, Pistol, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard with shoulder stock and 4" barrel.
Bergmann, Mars model 1903, self loading pistol, w/accompanying shoulder stock.
Browning, model 1903, Pistol, 9mm Browning Long, with shoulder stock and 5" barrel.
Browning Hi power pistols, 9mm having tangent sights graduated to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder
stock, having S/Ns less than T200,000 etched vertically on the right side of slide, barrel, or
frame and bearing crest of Emirates of Muscat & Oman, or mirror image of such crest,
accompanied by original detachable wooden flat board shoulder stocks.
Canadian, Inglis No. 1, Chinese Contract, Hi Power pistols, cal. 9mm parabellum, hav
Canadian, Inglis No. 1, Chinese Contract, Hi Power pistols, cal. 9mm parabellum, having a
tangent rear sight adjustable from 50 to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, and having
the letters C in the S/N and accompanied by original Canadian mfd. detachable wooden
holster/shoulder stock.
Chinese mfd. copies of the Mauser model 1896, semiautomatic pistol, produced prior to 1945, any
cal., accompanied by original Chinese mfd. detachable wooden holster/shoulder stocks
Colt, Model Woodsman, .22 Long Rifle cal., semiautomatic pistol with an experimental 10" barrel and
an experimental wooden detachable shoulder stock.
Colt, Model Woodsman, .22 Long Rifle cal., semiautomatic pistols, mfd. between 1915 and 1943,
together with the original leather detachable holster stocks, mfd. by the N&S
Corporation, Ventura, CA.
Colt, Model 1905, Pistol, .45 rimless, with leather holster/shoulder stock and 5" barrel.
Finnish, model L-35, Lahti, Semiautomatic pistol, in cal. 9mm parabellum, accompanied by
original Finnish detachable wooden holster/shoulder stock.
Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistols as mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated
chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription Germany or Made in
Germany on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type,
detachable wooden shoulder stocks.
Luger, DWM Pistol, model 1900, 1902, or 1906, in 7.65 Luger or 9mm parabellum cal., having the
American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with original
detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.
DWM Luger, Original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914, and 1920. Naval pistols in 9mm
parabellum or 7.65mm cal., in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties; in both
altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered
safety markings in the model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks
bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs,
being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger
pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is
mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear
width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of
l-3/16".

NOTE; DID NOT COPY EVERYTHING, BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT MANY 4 OR 5 INCH BARREL GUNS ARE ALREADY EXEMPT / I.E. THE HI-POWERS, CHINESE BROOMHANDLES WITH STOCKS, ETC.

[skeeter4206]

WOW! So if I was out there shooting an artillery or navy with a stock that wasn't serial numbered to that gun I would be ok, but not a 6" barreled luger that is not specifically classified as a navy or artillery, but comes from the factory already made (no re-manufacturing or altering of the gun) to have a stock attached to the grip.

Man! that would be an interesting court room case.

Criminal conduct

The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, in relation to engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to (NFA)firearms without having registered or paid a Special Occupational Tax (SOT); receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.[18]

Now on this statement, cause I am in the mix of getting a navy luger. Does it need to be registered as a class III weapon although it is not fully auto. But once its got its stock added it considered a SBR. Or does the exemption that Ed refers to make it legal as is.

I never would have thought that this issue would have came up and me being charged as a felon just by putting on a stock that some of the lugers were already equipped to have.

Just this exact reason is another fine example of why its a great thing to be a member of a forum with so many knowledgeable folks.

[skeeter4206]

Another question. At what point would it be legal to have a luger with a stock that isn't in the exempt category. I know I can buy 16" barrel AR-15's, so does that barrel length also apply to a luger to make it legal with a stock.

Hell! throw a snail drum on a 4" luger with a butt stock and I guess they would throw you under the jail cell.

[Ben M.]

how do the simpson folks sell this one then to the public?
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=6854

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

how do the simpson folks sell this one then to the public?
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=6854

I would imagine the second one would fit this, as it says, with or without the forearm;

Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum
cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having either American Eagle chamber crests
and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery
rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety
markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe," together w/original commercial flat board stocks
of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks; may include a "Germany"
marking.
Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., with accompanying
original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel
lengths of 11-3/4" to less than 16"

Personally, I think that you could quote any of the above and make an average person leave you alone at the range. If, and that is a big if, someone tried to charge you, this is confusing enough to a collector.

Besides being careful, I have never heard of a collector being charged for this. Not they could not push it, but where do you draw the line.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by skeeter4206

Another question. At what point would it be legal to have a luger with a stock that isn't in the exempt category. I know I can buy 16" barrel AR-15's, so does that barrel length also apply to a luger to make it legal with a stock.

Hell! throw a snail drum on a 4" luger with a butt stock and I guess they would throw you under the jail cell.

yes, a 16 inch barrel makes this all a moot point. I haven't reloaded in years, really should, but the two 16 inch lugers I have owned, I could not get to cycle correctly.

[MikeP]

In 1966 I got "caught" with a mint C96 rig I got from a neighbor who brought it back.
It was certainly illegal at the time as a set.

Since they "had to do something" I was allowed to "abandon" it to the Govt.

I was on my way to the army and had no record.
They got a '28 Thompson as well.

Later this all came up in my security clearance investigation.

[mrerick]

The C&R exemption list specifically states that the combinations listed are NOT NFA SBRs, but come under the GCA. That is what makes it OK to have historically correct combinations of Lugers and appropriate stocks (original or reproduction).

When you have the correct combination, it is not a NFA firearm and doesn't require the registration, tax and transfer that a NFA firearm would...

This means you can have a Navy stock with a Navy Luger; an Artillery stock with an artillery Luger, and many other listed combinations.

A Navy stock with an Artillery Luger would be a NFA firearm.

NFA firearms include full auto and other "sensitive" type firearms. Not just machine guns get covered under those rules.

[John Sabato]

In the 1960's and 1970's, the ATF looked at the possession of a Luger with a stock lug and a stock of any description, without a $200 registration tax stamp, as "constructive intent" to manufacture a SBR... I passed on buying the shoulder stock (for only $25.00) to accompany my 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger in order not to stray even close to wrong side of the law...

[lew1]

Originally Posted by skeeter4206

SO I COULD HAVE GOT IN REAL TROUBLE DOING WHAT I DID TODAY IF THE WRONG PERSON SAW THAT CONFIGURATION KNOWING THAT IT WAS A MISMATCHED LUGER AND STOCK TO MAKE IT SHOOT THAT WAY?

bY THE WAY, IT SHOT A HELL OF ALOT BETTER AT A DISTANCE. I WAS SHOOTING AT MY 150 YD TARGET WHICH I WAS SHOOTING MY OTHER RIFLES I HAD TODAY WITH ME AND IT WAS PRETTY DAMN CLOSE TO THE SMALL TARGETS I HAD. THERE JUST WASNT ANY CONSISTANCY WITH THE PATTERN AT THAT DISTANCE.

BUT, THATLL BE THE LAST TIME I DO THAT. I DO THANK YALL FOR THAT NEEDED INFORMATION, BUT I GOT IN REAL TROUBLE.

WHAT KIND OF TROUBLE COULD THEY HAVE DONE TO ME HAVING IT THAT WAY.

Not much. You would get a government paid vacation of a few years, confiscation of all of your firearms, and prohibited from owning any in the future.