persian artillery rig

Sergio Natali · 01-15-2014, 10:49 AM

I 've been offered this pretty good Persian Artillery Luger rig.
I'm not an expert at all on "artillery Lugers", and a part from a judgment o this gun, that in any case has been rechambered in 9x21 IMI and it's for sale at the price of over USD 7200.00 - I'd like to know if Persian Lugers are that scarce (in other words if it's worth the price) since according to some books seems that only 2000 of these were made.

alanint · 01-15-2014, 10:55 AM

Persian Artillery Rigs seem to be running in the $5-$6 Thousand range here. The calibre change would severely affect collector interest here in the US. This one seem to be in excellent shape otherwise and includes the expected accessories.

It all depends in how rare they are in your market and how badly you want to own one.

cirelaw · 01-15-2014, 12:00 PM

Heres one I found! http://shop.pre98.com/product.sc?productId=1174 and one sold http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...9Persian34.htm ~~Eric

alanint · 01-15-2014, 02:37 PM

If anyone is interested in a Persian Artillery in similar shape, (except no spare mag pouch or spare mags) I know where a matching gun with matching stock is located.

PM me. I have no interest in this item nor will I profit from it.

LU1900 · 01-16-2014, 04:43 AM

On phenix , the holster is repro

sheepherder · 01-16-2014, 10:33 AM

I am familiar with the reasoning of 'stretching' the 9 x 19 chamber out to 9 x 21 (to get around some Euro restrictions on military caliber ammunition) but I am puzzled as to why the Israelis should be involved in the development of this cartridge...

Does anyone know why Israel Military Industries got involved with this caliber cartridge??? It seems to me that it would take up valuable manufacturing time/facilities that could be better used to make more useful ammunition for the Israelis' own defense...

I've read the Wiki on the 9 x 21 but it doesn't tell the whole story...

Norme · 01-16-2014, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LU1900

On phenix , the holster is repro

Bonjour Patrice, Can you post a photo of the back of an authentic Persian Artillery holster? I've never seen one illustrated.
Best regards, Norm

Michael Zeleny · 01-16-2014, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Persian Artillery Rigs seem to be running in the $5-$6 Thousand range here.

The ones you might find in that range have long been sold. $7,400.00 is a very fair price today.

Michael Zeleny · 01-16-2014, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LU1900

On phenix , the holster is repro

It looks as original as Persian holsters get, which is subject to some doubt.

LU1900 · 01-17-2014, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Bonjour Patrice, Can you post a photo of the back of an authentic Persian Artillery holster? I've never seen one illustrated.
Best regards, Norm

The one in first post from luger parabellum is a very good one , here some pics from mine :
On pic 2 and 3 you see difference with the pakis made

alanint · 01-17-2014, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I am familiar with the reasoning of 'stretching' the 9 x 19 chamber out to 9 x 21 (to get around some Euro restrictions on military caliber ammunition) but I am puzzled as to why the Israelis should be involved in the development of this cartridge...

Does anyone know why Israel Military Industries got involved with this caliber cartridge??? It seems to me that it would take up valuable manufacturing time/facilities that could be better used to make more useful ammunition for the Israelis' own defense...

I've read the Wiki on the 9 x 21 but it doesn't tell the whole story...

Yes,
Post-war reparations. Many European countries agreed to purchase IMI stuff to help bolster the new country of Israel. This included odd pairings like Germany buying UZIs and the manufacture of 9X21 for countries who had a prohibition on Military calibers.

Norme · 01-17-2014, 09:59 AM

Thank you Patrice! Your photo of the back of a Persian holster is, I believe, the only one ever shown on the forums or published in a reference book. Even Sturgess does not show one. As we can now see, a Persian holster's stock block has a small, central leather spacer, just like the Imperial Artillery holsters, and also, again like the Imperials, it does not have a vertical belt sleeve. Phoenix Investment Arms, in their description, claims these features to be distinctively Persian, when in fact they are distinctive to cheap fakes of Pakistani origin!
There are two features that are visible from the front. Persian, unlike Imperial holsters, have cleaning rod sheath ears that are integral to their lids, not sewn on discs, and the closure straps are attached with two lines of stitches, not three like on Imperials, or a square of stitching like on the Pakistani fakes.
Those interested should compare Patrice's photos with those on the P.I.A. website.
Best regards, Norm
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1733Persian34.htm

alanint · 01-17-2014, 10:08 AM

The typical "acid aging" of Pakistany fake holsters is abundantly clear on this Phoenix Investments offering.

Usually, if you sniff these fakes from closeup, they have a sour smell to them.

The underside of the leather is usually "stringy", with leather fibers looking like a 70's shag rug.

guns3545 · 01-17-2014, 03:28 PM

Norme,

You are right on.

The Forum should be a place to educate collectors and help them avoid costly errors. Hopefully, in the course of doing that, we do not enable the forgers.

BTW, these have been seen before, but to illustrate that Persians are Persians, here are mine.

Apologies for the poor photography.

To Sergio,

On the surface, your rig looks good and, IMHO, $7200 would be a bargain for a complete high conditioned rig. Hope this helps.

John

klaus 3338 · 01-18-2014, 03:04 AM

I think that all leather was made in Persia as the tool and rod, too.
The strap should have a "steel" spring as the Imperial Navy strap.
I am even not sure if the stocks are leftover Imperial stocks- they are lighter in color than these of the Imperial time and seem to have another structure in the wood.

01-15-2014, 10:49 AM	#1
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	persian artillery rig I 've been offered this pretty good Persian Artillery Luger rig. I'm not an expert at all on "artillery Lugers", and a part from a judgment o this gun, that in any case has been rechambered in 9x21 IMI and it's for sale at the price of over USD 7200.00 - I'd like to know if Persian Lugers are that scarce (in other words if it's worth the price) since according to some books seems that only 2000 of these were made. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

01-16-2014, 04:43 AM	#5
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 42 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	On phenix , the holster is repro __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

01-16-2014, 10:33 AM	#6
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	I am familiar with the reasoning of 'stretching' the 9 x 19 chamber out to 9 x 21 (to get around some Euro restrictions on military caliber ammunition) but I am puzzled as to why the Israelis should be involved in the development of this cartridge... Does anyone know *why* Israel Military Industries got involved with this caliber cartridge??? It seems to me that it would take up valuable manufacturing time/facilities that could be better used to make more useful ammunition for the Israelis' own defense... I've read the Wiki on the 9 x 21 but it doesn't tell the whole story... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-17-2014, 03:28 PM	#14
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 437 Thanks: 655 Thanked 492 Times in 218 Posts	Norme, You are right on. The Forum should be a place to educate collectors and help them avoid costly errors. Hopefully, in the course of doing that, we do not enable the forgers. BTW, these have been seen before, but to illustrate that Persians are Persians, here are mine. Apologies for the poor photography. To Sergio, On the surface, your rig looks good and, IMHO, $7200 would be a bargain for a complete high conditioned rig. Hope this helps. John Attached Thumbnails

01-15-2014, 10:55 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Persian Artillery Rigs seem to be running in the $5-$6 Thousand range here. The calibre change would severely affect collector interest here in the US. This one seem to be in excellent shape otherwise and includes the expected accessories. It all depends in how rare they are in your market and how badly you want to own one.

01-15-2014, 12:00 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Heres one I found! http://shop.pre98.com/product.sc?productId=1174 and one sold http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...9Persian34.htm ~~Eric

01-15-2014, 02:37 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	If anyone is interested in a Persian Artillery in similar shape, (except no spare mag pouch or spare mags) I know where a matching gun with matching stock is located. PM me. I have no interest in this item nor will I profit from it.

01-17-2014, 09:59 AM	#12
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Thank you Patrice! Your photo of the back of a Persian holster is, I believe, the only one ever shown on the forums or published in a reference book. Even Sturgess does not show one. As we can now see, a Persian holster's stock block has a small, central leather spacer, just like the Imperial Artillery holsters, and also, again like the Imperials, it does not have a vertical belt sleeve. Phoenix Investment Arms, in their description, claims these features to be distinctively Persian, when in fact they are distinctive to cheap fakes of Pakistani origin! There are two features that are visible from the front. Persian, unlike Imperial holsters, have cleaning rod sheath ears that are integral to their lids, not sewn on discs, and the closure straps are attached with two lines of stitches, not three like on Imperials, or a square of stitching like on the Pakistani fakes. Those interested should compare Patrice's photos with those on the P.I.A. website. Best regards, Norm http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1733Persian34.htm

01-17-2014, 10:08 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The typical "acid aging" of Pakistany fake holsters is abundantly clear on this Phoenix Investments offering. Usually, if you sniff these fakes from closeup, they have a sour smell to them. The underside of the leather is usually "stringy", with leather fibers looking like a 70's shag rug.

01-18-2014, 03:04 AM	#15
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 411 Times in 160 Posts	I think that all leather was made in Persia as the tool and rod, too. The strap should have a "steel" spring as the Imperial Navy strap. I am even not sure if the stocks are leftover Imperial stocks- they are lighter in color than these of the Imperial time and seem to have another structure in the wood.