Cartridge Counter Grip Mod

[sheepherder]

Discussion of the Powell Indicator/Cartridge Counter Lugers in another thread prompted me to check in Sturgess & Gortz's DVD about this variation...And it was mentioned that The Dutch had experimented with 10 test Lugers in 1904 with a right-side grip modified to allow direct view of the magazine loading button. No pics, but John [guns3545] had posted a pic which included a cutaway Luger, and it had a similar modification to the right grip. So I decided to make one.

Probably a popular grip mod, since it's so simple. And, simple is my middle name. I didn't want to ruin any of my aftermarket Khyber Pass, Chinese, or India-made grips, so I chose an old set of original grips to chop up.

Someone had tried to re-cut the checkering with a Buck knife or maybe a hacksaw blade, so it was an easy choice. Well-worn and thoroughly oil stained, just the set for the experiment.

I laid out the mag button travel with pencil on masking tape and transferred the lines to the grip to mill out.

It actually worked out pretty well, although when I do the 'good' grip, I'll make my setup/fixture more accurate. This one is just a feasibility study.

The magazine is a Mec-Gar with one of Gerry's aluminum bottoms. Eight rounds were a tight fit, and it really didn't want to compress any more to insert it in the Luger. I think seven rounds is the limit.

This isn't a very practical mod, as you have to switch hands to see the right grip...

[wlyon]

Richard
You do some interesting things. Nice job. Bill

[hayhugh]

Did not the original cartridge counter have a see-thru cover to keep out dirt, etc?

[alanint]

Yes, it was an early type of cellulose with the numbers printed on it.

[Curss]

Might not be practical for a right hand shooter, but for a south paw like me, it could be a nice feature. What will you use to cover the hole, lexan?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by wlyon

Richard
You do some interesting things. Nice job. Bill

I think the word you're looking for is 'strange'...

Originally Posted by hayhugh

Did not the original cartridge counter have a see-thru cover to keep out dirt, etc?

This is a copy of the Dutch grip modification (not the Powell Indicator); there is no mention in Sturgess & Gortz of a window. I have no plans to make one. It wouldn't need chamfering if it had a window.

[lugerholsterrepair]

A window covering would necessarily need to be placed on the inside and this would block the travel of the follower button? Perhaps it is recessed enough?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

A window covering would necessarily need to be placed on the inside and this would block the travel of the follower button? Perhaps it is recessed enough?

That LOB article that Eric linked in the other thread seems to indicate that the gripframe would need to be modified to make room for the strip, indicator, and window...His sketches look like the indicator sticks out past the magazine tube...

http://www.landofborchardt.com/AEluger-article.html

Ugh...That's all way too much work...I was going to ask Gerry if he had ever modified a magazine to CC spec, but that 'button' is much too much...

I was thinking the pin was just made longer and stuck out level with the side of the magazine tube...I should have known the Germans would never make anything simple when they could make it with 8 or 10 separate parts...

[sheepherder]

Hayhugh posted a link to a slotted CC grip set by Sile -

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/985140.htm

That looks interesting. I'm not familiar with Sile grips, but a set like that with an extended magazine button in a left-side milled-slot magazine might be kind of cool...

I don't know how you'd get a window insert in the grip though...

I can see one issue - Does Sile offset the slot like the original CC grips??? Or are they centered to the follower button centerline??? If they were offset then you could mark the magazine itself with the graduations instead of that added metal strip the originals had in the grip...

[sheepherder]

I've moved on to a set of new aftermarket grips. No idea where they came from or when, but the checkering is coarse, my thread gauge says ~14tpi...

Grip slot is awaiting chamfering. Not really necessary, I just feel a milled wooden slot should be chamfered, instead of having a sharp edge.

If I were doing a grip for a 'customer' [coff, coff], I would suggest moving the slot over 1/8" toward the center of the grip. This would leave half the magazine button exposed and also a flat section of the magazine body that could then be inscribed with numerals that would correspond with number of cartridges and be seen through the slot.

I don't know any jewelers who could pantograph numbers on a magazine, but Xmas is coming and the malls used to have several small kiosks that did engraving...

I'll see if I can angle-mill the 45º chamfer to the slot next.

(I might try bleaching the stain out too...Way too dark...)

[lfid]

fwiw - I think the grips at
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/985140.htm
are likely leftovers/culls from the 1970s mauser parabellum / interarms luger production
like the production example currently offered at
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...84bb05051e0666

these grips have the angular V shape around the grip screws frame location

perhaps a member who owns one of these can check the design / material used for these MP lugers with the counter in slot and comment

thanks
Bill

[hayhugh]

As quoted from ad. https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDeta...1416479274300#


The Powell Indicating Device consists of two components 1) A special left grip that has a small slot cut lengthwise down the grip with a small delicate metal strip attached to the backside that was covered with a 3 1/4 inch very fragile celluloid strip. The metal strip was inscribed with black numbers (1-7) running from the top to the bottom of the strip, that indicated the number of rounds remaining in the magazine. 2) The second part was the special cartridge counter magazine. This magazine, although similar to a standard wood base magazine, has been slotted on the left side of the body and was fitted with a special follower that had a small pin/indicator projecting on the left side. This small indicator pin has a single horizontal witness mark on top and the pin slides up and down under the celluloid strip as the rounds are fired, indicating how many cartridges were actually left in the magazine; a simple but very effective device.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by hayhugh

As quoted from ad.

The Powell Indicating Device consists of two components 1) A special left grip that has a small slot cut lengthwise down the grip with a small delicate metal strip attached to the backside that was covered with a 3 1/4 inch very fragile celluloid strip. The metal strip was inscribed with black numbers (1-7) running from the top to the bottom of the strip, that indicated the number of rounds remaining in the magazine. 2) The second part was the special cartridge counter magazine. This magazine, although similar to a standard wood base magazine, has been slotted on the left side of the body and was fitted with a special follower that had a small pin/indicator projecting on the left side. This small indicator pin has a single horizontal witness mark on top and the pin slides up and down under the celluloid strip as the rounds are fired, indicating how many cartridges were actually left in the magazine; a simple but very effective device.

Yep. All true. That's not what I'm copying. This is the 1904 Dutch mod, right grip slotted. Different.

[Sturgess & Gortz, pg 298]

(Also much simpler.)

But on the subject of the Powell Indicator, I had wondered why the 'indicator' was offset from the follower pin shaft...It's because the last round is way up inside the 'receiver' and the follower button shaft is no longer visible, so the pin is not used as the indicator; an offset pointer is installed.

The Powell device is also limited to 7 rounds (1 - 7). Second pic shows 4 rds indicated but only two visible. Fascinating.

[Maestro]

very very cool Richard... thank you for sharing.
i wish i was as talented

[sheepherder]

I'm going ahead with a left-side 'cartridge counter' grip & magazine. I'm planning on using an extended follower pin/button for the indicator.

I didn't have a spare Mec-Gar mag, so I ordered one from Greg Cote. I pressed out the base pins with an arbor press. There seems to be a correct way to do it, as shown in pic. After moving ~3/32", they popped right out.

Magazine base and follower are plastic, so I'll have to make metal replacements.

Locating the follower pin hole [cartridge indicator] in relation to the body, both 7-round [full] and one round [end of proposed slot]. 'Full' pin location is with top cartridge under tension from breechblock.

[sheepherder]

The magazine body needs to be securely clamped to mill out the slot, so I need an insert and outer relieved clamps (because of the ribs). I had a special mill cutter left over from a similar project [coff, coff] so I used that to contour the front of the insert. I used aluminum. The clamps are also aluminum, with 1/4" milled grooves for the rib clearance. A slot was milled in the clamp for end mill cutter clearance and observation. I chamfered it for better vision.

The magazine body can now be securely held and clamped for the milling of a 1/8" slot for the follower pin/indicator.

All this for an operation that will take less than 5 minutes to perform...

[sheepherder]

Boy, was I wrong about the five minutes!!!

After spending two+ hours today, I have the mag body slotted! A long tedious chore, with one broken 1/8" 4-flute end mill.

It just wouldn't take the feed. (BTW: Mec-Gar mags are not hardened). I ended up doing it all by hand, very slowly.

I made a relief cut in my tube insert, then clamped the mag tube + insert in my 'sandwich' and indicated off the tube front for my slot. I used a #31 drill bit to zero my 1/8" end mill and sank it into the hole. Then it was one cut up the tube to open the slot up. After that, it was just climb and conventional milling each side to open it up a bit, as I'm planning on making my button pin 1/8".

The first end mill broke off when I was ~5/8" into the power feed, as slow as my Chinese feed could be set. It left a jagged edge that cleaned up with subsequent cuts. A bit wider slot than I wanted, but them's the breaks [bad pun].

Next up is the follower.

[sheepherder]

Now that I have the body slotted, I need a metal follower and a metal bottom. G.T.'s bottoms are the best, and Gerry was able to fit me into his busy schedule and make one for me.

That left the follower. I had a chunk of brass left from the other magazine project so I made my follower out of that. Battery in my digi-cam was depleted, so no brass milling pics. Sides are relieved; bottom is spot-milled for spring header.

To drill G.T.'s mag bottom, I had to make another mag body insert <sigh>. Using my previous clamps and the new insert, I was able to spot the mag bottom holes and drill them through. G.T. graciously instructed me how to do it, and for a one-time-only procedure it came out OK.

I still need to make my extended follower button, so I have not pressed the bottom pins in yet (just Cotter pins holding it in place).

I'm not thrilled with having to make an extended follower button. Micro-machining is not my strong suit.

[alvin]

It's great work, but the key piece is missing. There should be a crystal like cover on the slot, otherwise, dirty, sand, water etc enter grip easily.

How to install a narrow piece of glass into it, could be hard. Any solution?

[Lugerdoc]

On the ones that I had made, we cut a vertical groove in the left side of the follower, the depth of the indicator piece, and just used the normal follower button. TH