Question on Luger manufacture techniques

grantman · 06-03-2019, 06:32 PM

Fellows

In the days before CNC machinery, were Lugers manufactured by skilled operators with each part manually produced and hand-checked for adherence to spec?

How great was the level of automation in the production of parts, especially frames, uppers and toggle mechanisms?

I suspect that Lugers were fabricated from "ordnance steel", an analog of 4140 steel. Am I correct?

How common was subcontracting major assemblies to smaller manufacturers? I realize that there were likely many changes, especially during wartime.

DonVoigt · 06-03-2019, 10:57 PM

See below in red:

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantman

Fellows

In the days before CNC machinery, were Lugers manufactured by skilled operators with each part manually produced and hand-checked for adherence to spec? yes

How great was the level of automation in the production of parts, especially frames, uppers and toggle mechanisms? Pictures from the era show normal machine tools of the era, no automation, but many special fixtures, cutters, and gages

I suspect that Lugers were fabricated from "ordnance steel", an analog of 4140 steel. Am I correct? No, various steels were used for different parts, these predate modern steel nomenclature

How common was subcontracting major assemblies to smaller manufacturers? I realize that there were likely many changes, especially during wartime.

Not common, if at all. DWM made all parts in house, as did Erfurt. An exception may have been magazines.

Edward Tinker · 06-04-2019, 02:36 AM

Very little books have pictures of production - the book on Mauser lugers by Weaver, Speed, et al (not Joops and Don's) has pictures from WW2. As Don said above, parts were made to specification, but were still hand-fit. They were not to USA specifications during WW1 and during WW2 probably closer to less hand-fit.

Ed

Vlim · 06-04-2019, 07:37 AM

Erfurt did use subcontractors. There is evidence that Pieper in Belgium made several small parts for Erfurt.

Large gun companies usually had a network of smaller subcontractors and home workers.

Production of parts was divided in steps, performed by individual machine operators. The machines were set up with specific jigs if required and the step was checked with go/no go gauges. Workers were paid by step and only for the correct ones.

Machines were basically lathes, drills, milling machines, cutters.

I have a copy of the post war Mauser Parabellum production book. Copies are not very good, still need to find time to clean them up digitally.

Steel types varied per part. There is an overview of steel types used by Mauser in the 1930, Swiss steel types and 1970s steel types in our book 'The Parabellum is Back!'.

DonVoigt · 06-04-2019, 10:01 AM

Vilm,
what were the small parts?
Screws, springs?

Vlim · 06-04-2019, 12:32 PM

Have to look it up, but I thought side plates as well.

Chichaco98 · 06-04-2019, 04:59 PM

Were complex parts, the breech block for example, made from castings?

Vlim · 06-04-2019, 05:03 PM

Not until the 1970s when toggle parts were cast. The breech block, receiver, frame were all made from forgings.

Most parts were made from forgings or steel stock, depending on the size and complexity.

mrerick · 06-04-2019, 06:51 PM

Not Lugers, but Mauro and Gerben's book contains pictures from the Mauser Oberndorf C-96 production line. I doubt there were a great number of changes to production techniques through production fo the Luger.

The work was done in batches, drawing from finished parts stocks sourced from other lines or stocks from prior operations.

Of great interest is a set of books on the Nickle M1910 and M1914 pocket pistols in the Mauser archive. These books document the workers that were fabricating parts as well as the time and cost involved for each part. Of particular interest, we see Mauser's master gunsmiths including Nickle also worked on the production line to makes parts for the pistols.

You'll find limited documentation of the production steps for Lugers at Mauser during WW-II in Jon Speed's book on Mauser Pistols. See the process sequence document on page 227.

Vlim · 06-04-2019, 06:58 PM

The post war frame needed 107 steps, not counting the actual forging.

grantman · 06-05-2019, 08:07 PM

Does anyone here have any insight into the percentage of Luger assemblies that was rejected for being out of spec?

mrerick · 06-05-2019, 09:33 PM

If you go by the Crown/RC markings, probably the majority of Erfurt guns were reworked, and very few DWM.

I expect that apart from records that might be discovered in archival caches, only August Weiss would have known.

06-03-2019, 06:32 PM	#1
grantman User Join Date: May 2019 Location: Northern Idaho Posts: 84 Thanks: 2 Thanked 34 Times in 22 Posts	Question on Luger manufacture techniques Fellows In the days before CNC machinery, were Lugers manufactured by skilled operators with each part manually produced and hand-checked for adherence to spec? How great was the level of automation in the production of parts, especially frames, uppers and toggle mechanisms? I suspect that Lugers were fabricated from "ordnance steel", an analog of 4140 steel. Am I correct? How common was subcontracting major assemblies to smaller manufacturers? I realize that there were likely many changes, especially during wartime.

06-04-2019, 02:36 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Very little books have pictures of production - the book on Mauser lugers by Weaver, Speed, et al (not Joops and Don's) has pictures from WW2. As Don said above, parts were made to specification, but were still hand-fit. They were not to USA specifications during WW1 and during WW2 probably closer to less hand-fit. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-04-2019, 10:01 AM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Vilm, what were the small parts? Screws, springs? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

06-04-2019, 06:51 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Not Lugers, but Mauro and Gerben's book contains pictures from the Mauser Oberndorf C-96 production line. I doubt there were a great number of changes to production techniques through production fo the Luger. The work was done in batches, drawing from finished parts stocks sourced from other lines or stocks from prior operations. Of great interest is a set of books on the Nickle M1910 and M1914 pocket pistols in the Mauser archive. These books document the workers that were fabricating parts as well as the time and cost involved for each part. Of particular interest, we see Mauser's master gunsmiths including Nickle also worked on the production line to makes parts for the pistols. You'll find limited documentation of the production steps for Lugers at Mauser during WW-II in Jon Speed's book on Mauser Pistols. See the process sequence document on page 227. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 06-05-2019 at 09:32 PM.

06-05-2019, 09:33 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	If you go by the Crown/RC markings, probably the majority of Erfurt guns were reworked, and very few DWM. I expect that apart from records that might be discovered in archival caches, only August Weiss would have known. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-04-2019, 07:37 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Erfurt did use subcontractors. There is evidence that Pieper in Belgium made several small parts for Erfurt. Large gun companies usually had a network of smaller subcontractors and home workers. Production of parts was divided in steps, performed by individual machine operators. The machines were set up with specific jigs if required and the step was checked with go/no go gauges. Workers were paid by step and only for the correct ones. Machines were basically lathes, drills, milling machines, cutters. I have a copy of the post war Mauser Parabellum production book. Copies are not very good, still need to find time to clean them up digitally. Steel types varied per part. There is an overview of steel types used by Mauser in the 1930, Swiss steel types and 1970s steel types in our book 'The Parabellum is Back!'.

06-04-2019, 12:32 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Have to look it up, but I thought side plates as well.

06-04-2019, 04:59 PM	#7
Chichaco98 User Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 21 Thanks: 1 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Were complex parts, the breech block for example, made from castings?

06-04-2019, 05:03 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Not until the 1970s when toggle parts were cast. The breech block, receiver, frame were all made from forgings. Most parts were made from forgings or steel stock, depending on the size and complexity.

06-04-2019, 06:58 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	The post war frame needed 107 steps, not counting the actual forging.

06-05-2019, 08:07 PM	#11
grantman User Join Date: May 2019 Location: Northern Idaho Posts: 84 Thanks: 2 Thanked 34 Times in 22 Posts	Does anyone here have any insight into the percentage of Luger assemblies that was rejected for being out of spec?