Unmarked Luger identification

DanielM · 04-23-2020, 04:07 PM

I will upload more pics when I can but this Luger appears to be a commercial prototype but I can’t be sure. Possible rework stamp on back of strap but the 8” barrel is really throwing me off. Need some true experts.

hayhugh · 04-23-2020, 04:43 PM

What caliber? .45?

DanielM · 04-23-2020, 05:19 PM

chambered in 9mm

Doubs · 04-23-2020, 05:39 PM

Your pictures do not show enough detail to reach any kind of conclusion WRT being a prototype.

More pictures, inside and out and with much greater detail are needed.

From what I can see, it appears to be a very nicely done rework of a 1906 Imperial Luger.

DanielM · 04-23-2020, 05:46 PM

Completely understand. I am unable to get much more in terms of detail as the owner doesn't seem inclined to really help me out by digging into it. He is asking $1700 for it and that just seems too high to me.

Mister Sunshine · 04-23-2020, 05:57 PM

The hole in the barrel looks to be too large for 9MM. i agree with you, it is over priced whatever it is.

DonVoigt · 04-23-2020, 06:53 PM

A conglomeration built on 1906 frame; the fingers mysteriously appeared after I looked again; got to stop this looking without my reading glasses.

.

mrerick · 04-23-2020, 07:42 PM

At most, worth about half the asking price as a "shooter".

I don't believe it's a 1970's commercial Mauser frame, but rather a M1906 frame.

IIRC, the safety on the Mauser frames wrapped around and entered both sides of the grip. Perhaps the cutouts were only on the grips, and they used an original M1906 safety?

Gerben or Mauro would know if they did an exact M1906 later after Sam Cummins requested a return to the classic designs.

Note that at some point, an original serial number on front of the frame may have been removed and changed to "04". Changing a serial number is against ATF regulations in the USA if this was what was done.

Karl · 04-23-2020, 08:50 PM

Side plate looks weird, like someone shaped it with a hand file. The fur backdrop is also weird.

KFS

Norme · 04-23-2020, 09:23 PM

You gotta love fur!
Norm

Edward Tinker · 04-23-2020, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

You gotta love fur!
Norm

I do, but its awfully tough on the animal

DonVoigt · 04-23-2020, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

At most, worth about half the asking price as a "shooter".

I don't believe it's a 1970's commercial Mauser frame, but rather a M1906 frame.

IIRC, the safety on the Mauser frames wrapped around and entered both sides of the grip. Perhaps the cutouts were only on the grips, and they used an original M1906 safety?

Gerben or Mauro would know if they did an exact M1906 later after Sam Cummins requested a return to the classic designs.

Note that at some point, an original serial number on front of the frame may have been removed and changed to "04". Changing a serial number is against ATF regulations in the USA if this was what was done.

The rear view of the frame shows the lack of the "fingers" on either side of the toggle, leaving open spaces- these are filled on ''real" lugers and the gap is typical of Mauser 1970 vintage copies.

Since it has a serial number, just how would one "prove" it was changed? or when, or where, and perhaps when it was "manufactured"? It is not "obvious" that it is altered, so why worry?

Heinz · 04-24-2020, 10:35 AM

Reblued, no proof marks, maybe 1970's repro production but that would have proofs I think?
Grips have an uncheckered border unusually narrow. Maybe a Bubba Gunworks prototype. I would not count on it being a reliable shooter. Overpriced by at least $1000

mrerick · 04-24-2020, 11:36 AM

One other difference between the frame on this gun and the 1970's Mauser frame is the width of the boarder around the frame ears left after milling. It's narrow on the 1970's Mauser frame, and the one shown is wider as in an Imperial era Luger frame.

Again, I don't know if the later Mauser Parabellum production made closer to what Sam Cummings wanted changed back to the wider ear border.

I'm trying to visualize the "fingers" on the rear of the frame.

This is the rear of my M1906 DWM luger:

This is a later P08 Luger:

Are these areas around the notch the "fingers" mentioned?

Sergio Natali · 04-24-2020, 12:39 PM

I only have a fraction of the knowledge that many guys on this Forum have, but to me that Luger looks like mixmaster, I would probably pass it.

Vlim · 04-24-2020, 01:49 PM

It's a 1906 frame, not Post War Parabellum.

Machining details differ on the frame ramps and the 1970s Mausers don't have the 'fingers'.

Heinz · 04-24-2020, 08:49 PM

OK, A 1906 frame but different grips, possible 1970 Mauser and what looks to be a 1970 Mauser toggle train? no fingers at the back, no checkering on the face of the toggles, no proof marks plus and a strange barrel profile. Bubba Gunworks prototype.

Heinz · 04-24-2020, 08:53 PM

actually I should have said Mauser rear toggle link. Who knows what the front part of the train is from.

JTD · 04-24-2020, 09:02 PM

I see all original luger parts, DWM on toggle. It has 1906 features, with a changed barrel, and fresh blue and # on front. Notice u rear sight groove.

Proofed · 04-25-2020, 10:05 AM

If the pistol is 1,700 and the seller is not willing to do whatever he can then it's a moot point what it is anyway, if its not obvious what it is then move on to the next one, there's always a next one.

04-23-2020, 04:07 PM	#1
DanielM New User Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Unmarked Luger identification I will upload more pics when I can but this Luger appears to be a commercial prototype but I can’t be sure. Possible rework stamp on back of strap but the 8” barrel is really throwing me off. Need some true experts. Attached Thumbnails

04-23-2020, 06:53 PM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	A conglomeration built on 1906 frame; the fingers mysteriously appeared after I looked again; got to stop this looking without my reading glasses. . __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

04-23-2020, 07:42 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	At most, worth about half the asking price as a "shooter". I don't believe it's a 1970's commercial Mauser frame, but rather a M1906 frame. IIRC, the safety on the Mauser frames wrapped around and entered both sides of the grip. Perhaps the cutouts were only on the grips, and they used an original M1906 safety? Gerben or Mauro would know if they did an exact M1906 later after Sam Cummins requested a return to the classic designs. Note that at some point, an original serial number on front of the frame may have been removed and changed to "04". Changing a serial number is against ATF regulations in the USA if this was what was done. Attached Images __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-24-2020, 11:36 AM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	One other difference between the frame on this gun and the 1970's Mauser frame is the width of the boarder around the frame ears left after milling. It's narrow on the 1970's Mauser frame, and the one shown is wider as in an Imperial era Luger frame. Again, I don't know if the later Mauser Parabellum production made closer to what Sam Cummings wanted changed back to the wider ear border. I'm trying to visualize the "fingers" on the rear of the frame. This is the rear of my M1906 DWM luger: This is a later P08 Luger: Are these areas around the notch the "fingers" mentioned? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-24-2020, 12:39 PM	#15
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I only have a fraction of the knowledge that many guys on this Forum have, but to me that Luger looks like mixmaster, I would probably pass it. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

04-23-2020, 04:43 PM	#2
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 857 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	What caliber? .45?

04-23-2020, 05:19 PM	#3
DanielM New User Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	chambered in 9mm

04-23-2020, 05:39 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	Your pictures do not show enough detail to reach any kind of conclusion WRT being a prototype. More pictures, inside and out and with much greater detail are needed. From what I can see, it appears to be a very nicely done rework of a 1906 Imperial Luger.

04-23-2020, 05:46 PM	#5
DanielM New User Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Completely understand. I am unable to get much more in terms of detail as the owner doesn't seem inclined to really help me out by digging into it. He is asking $1700 for it and that just seems too high to me.

04-23-2020, 05:57 PM	#6
Mister Sunshine User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Cherry Valley, Ca. Posts: 94 Thanks: 0 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	The hole in the barrel looks to be too large for 9MM. i agree with you, it is over priced whatever it is.

04-23-2020, 08:50 PM	#9
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 522 Thanks: 0 Thanked 271 Times in 118 Posts	Side plate looks weird, like someone shaped it with a hand file. The fur backdrop is also weird. KFS

04-23-2020, 09:23 PM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	You gotta love fur! Norm

04-24-2020, 10:35 AM	#13
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Reblued, no proof marks, maybe 1970's repro production but that would have proofs I think? Grips have an uncheckered border unusually narrow. Maybe a Bubba Gunworks prototype. I would not count on it being a reliable shooter. Overpriced by at least $1000

04-24-2020, 01:49 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	It's a 1906 frame, not Post War Parabellum. Machining details differ on the frame ramps and the 1970s Mausers don't have the 'fingers'.

04-24-2020, 08:49 PM	#17
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	OK, A 1906 frame but different grips, possible 1970 Mauser and what looks to be a 1970 Mauser toggle train? no fingers at the back, no checkering on the face of the toggles, no proof marks plus and a strange barrel profile. Bubba Gunworks prototype.

04-24-2020, 08:53 PM	#18
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	actually I should have said Mauser rear toggle link. Who knows what the front part of the train is from.

04-24-2020, 09:02 PM	#19
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	I see all original luger parts, DWM on toggle. It has 1906 features, with a changed barrel, and fresh blue and # on front. Notice u rear sight groove.

04-25-2020, 10:05 AM	#20
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	next one If the pistol is 1,700 and the seller is not willing to do whatever he can then it's a moot point what it is anyway, if its not obvious what it is then move on to the next one, there's always a next one.