Concerns on K Date

gunnertwo · 12-12-2021, 03:31 PM

Friends,

I'm viewing a K Date that is presently for sale at auction. I have concerns that it has been modified and is not original. My main issue is the serial number on the front of the frame. In my opinion the frame has been shaved and a new serial number applied. The main indicator is the style of font in the numbering. It does not match the rest of the gun. The "matching" magazine is described as renumbered (good the seller states that). The style on numbering between frame and mag are the same. I would appreciate comments on the gun and the conclusion I have reached. Thanks.

G2

Mac Cat · 12-12-2021, 03:51 PM

I was more surprised at the serial number on the barrel - that's a wacky font.

I don't see much evidence that the frame was shaved, but there aren't any halos around the serial numbers, either. That makes me think it was refinished.

jeb111 · 12-12-2021, 04:43 PM

I actually have this pistol on my watchlist, I'm not interested in bidding on it just curious as to what it will sell for. Seems like a reputable seller and I bought a rifle from him about a year ago and it was exactly as advertised. The frame doesn't look shave to me at all, the font on the barrel does look funky but I think I've seen that before on others. Not saying it's legit but looking through Jan Still's Third Reich Lugers it seems to be a 3rd subvariation and judging from the pictures in the book I see some with the same font. The pistol is in the right serial # range for this variation. Hope this helps.
Jim

spangy · 12-12-2021, 06:17 PM

I would like to see a full left and right profile of this gun as well as a full on top view from muzzle to rear sight.
Is there a boxed "O/37" acceptance proof on the barrel ??
To me the fonts don't appear substantially different enough to warrant suspicion but then again we don't get to see the other existing numbers on the gun.
In my mind there is no way the front of the frame was shaved and even if it was what would be the objective ??
Since the seller has admitted to altering the mag numbers there would be no point in shaving the frame to match a faked mag. So unless all the small parts have matched numbers that do not match the original frame number there really is no reason to go to all that trouble.

Too little information to answer this dilemma properly and you know what that means ... more pictures please. Plus you know how I feel about 'white lipstick' ya ??

I could not tell you in good conscience that this gun is OK without holding it in my hand and allowed a 'take-down' inspection.

gunnertwo · 12-13-2021, 12:01 AM

I have made several purchases from the seller with no issues. I'm not saying the seller has done anything to mislead potential buyers. Everyone makes mistakes and no one knows everything.

Why shave the frame? The same reason to alter a mag to match the gun. More inflated value for the seller.

I cannot imagine any reason for the Germans to change the style/font of numbering. I believe the frame number has been altered.

I agree with Greg, a hands-on examination should be done by the buyer.

G2

mrerick · 12-13-2021, 09:44 AM

Biggest problem I have is that you really cannot inspect markings when they are filled with lacquer or other materials.

I'm not experienced with "K" dates. Was the process then stamping over the blued finished (which would result in halos) or after they were serialized? Things look odd around the barrel serial numbers (lighter in a broad area), and - as mentioned - no halos.

Frame is actually proud of the receiver - not shaved...

I agree - more needed and in hand inspection needed. No photos of receiver numbering or other areas like side plate.

kkiley · 12-13-2021, 08:49 PM

The several I have found doing an internet search of K date serial numbers show the frame and barrel fonts matching , I was looking for SN's with the elongated? number 5 . hope this helps

tharpo · 12-13-2021, 08:59 PM

The gun looks refinished to me.

Dave Sanders · 12-13-2021, 09:10 PM

I have dealt with this dealer and I have found him to be very honest and nothing has ever been hidden from my dealings. He does give an inspection period, so if it isn't "right", he will take it back. Just my 2 cents worth.
Dave

wayne8661 · 12-14-2021, 10:34 AM

I have bought Multiple pieces from this dealer and 2 lugers. He is easy to deal with and I have never had a problem.

jeb111 · 12-14-2021, 01:22 PM

Sold for over $3500. Looking at it more and more the finish might have been touched up but it doesn't look like a complete refinish job. Without having it in hand it's hard to say 100% but It looked to be a good K. At least there is a 3 day inspection period. Any seller that offers money back at least stands behind what they sell.
Jim

12-12-2021, 03:31 PM	#1
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 623 Thanks: 826 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	Concerns on K Date Friends, I'm viewing a K Date that is presently for sale at auction. I have concerns that it has been modified and is not original. My main issue is the serial number on the front of the frame. In my opinion the frame has been shaved and a new serial number applied. The main indicator is the style of font in the numbering. It does not match the rest of the gun. The "matching" magazine is described as renumbered (good the seller states that). The style on numbering between frame and mag are the same. I would appreciate comments on the gun and the conclusion I have reached. Thanks. G2 Attached Thumbnails

12-12-2021, 06:17 PM	#4
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	I would like to see a full left and right profile of this gun as well as a full on top view from muzzle to rear sight. Is there a boxed "O/37" acceptance proof on the barrel ?? To me the fonts don't appear substantially different enough to warrant suspicion but then again we don't get to see the other existing numbers on the gun. In my mind there is no way the front of the frame was shaved and even if it was what would be the objective ?? Since the seller has admitted to altering the mag numbers there would be no point in shaving the frame to match a faked mag. So unless all the small parts have matched numbers that do not match the original frame number there really is no reason to go to all that trouble. Too little information to answer this dilemma properly and you know what that means ... more pictures please. Plus you know how I feel about 'white lipstick' ya ?? I could not tell you in good conscience that this gun is OK without holding it in my hand and allowed a 'take-down' inspection. __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

12-13-2021, 09:44 AM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Biggest problem I have is that you really cannot inspect markings when they are filled with lacquer or other materials. I'm not experienced with "K" dates. Was the process then stamping over the blued finished (which would result in halos) or after they were serialized? Things look odd around the barrel serial numbers (lighter in a broad area), and - as mentioned - no halos. Frame is actually proud of the receiver - not shaved... I agree - more needed and in hand inspection needed. No photos of receiver numbering or other areas like side plate. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-12-2021, 03:51 PM	#2
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	I was more surprised at the serial number on the barrel - that's a wacky font. I don't see much evidence that the frame was shaved, but there aren't any halos around the serial numbers, either. That makes me think it was refinished.

12-12-2021, 04:43 PM	#3
jeb111 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018 Location: wyoming Posts: 277 Thanks: 712 Thanked 331 Times in 133 Posts	I actually have this pistol on my watchlist, I'm not interested in bidding on it just curious as to what it will sell for. Seems like a reputable seller and I bought a rifle from him about a year ago and it was exactly as advertised. The frame doesn't look shave to me at all, the font on the barrel does look funky but I think I've seen that before on others. Not saying it's legit but looking through Jan Still's Third Reich Lugers it seems to be a 3rd subvariation and judging from the pictures in the book I see some with the same font. The pistol is in the right serial # range for this variation. Hope this helps. Jim

12-13-2021, 12:01 AM	#5
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 623 Thanks: 826 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	I have made several purchases from the seller with no issues. I'm not saying the seller has done anything to mislead potential buyers. Everyone makes mistakes and no one knows everything. Why shave the frame? The same reason to alter a mag to match the gun. More inflated value for the seller. I cannot imagine any reason for the Germans to change the style/font of numbering. I believe the frame number has been altered. I agree with Greg, a hands-on examination should be done by the buyer. G2

12-13-2021, 08:49 PM	#7
kkiley User Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: maryland Posts: 32 Thanks: 49 Thanked 23 Times in 12 Posts	The several I have found doing an internet search of K date serial numbers show the frame and barrel fonts matching , I was looking for SN's with the elongated? number 5 . hope this helps

12-13-2021, 08:59 PM	#8
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 116 Thanked 382 Times in 157 Posts	The gun looks refinished to me.

12-13-2021, 09:10 PM	#9
Dave Sanders User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Hamer, Idaho Posts: 283 Thanks: 26 Thanked 43 Times in 22 Posts	I have dealt with this dealer and I have found him to be very honest and nothing has ever been hidden from my dealings. He does give an inspection period, so if it isn't "right", he will take it back. Just my 2 cents worth. Dave

12-14-2021, 10:34 AM	#10
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	I have bought Multiple pieces from this dealer and 2 lugers. He is easy to deal with and I have never had a problem.

12-14-2021, 01:22 PM	#11
jeb111 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018 Location: wyoming Posts: 277 Thanks: 712 Thanked 331 Times in 133 Posts	Sold for over $3500. Looking at it more and more the finish might have been touched up but it doesn't look like a complete refinish job. Without having it in hand it's hard to say 100% but It looked to be a good K. At least there is a 3 day inspection period. Any seller that offers money back at least stands behind what they sell. Jim