Serial #1 Luger

wterrell · 07-23-2002, 11:00 PM

Please tell me about this Simson & Suhl Co. Luger, serial #1:

(1-1/2 hrs. left on auction)

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=2976713

Thor · 07-23-2002, 11:08 PM

A parts gun, Simson chambered would be around 1925 vintage and rust blued. Barrel appears salt blued as does EJECTOR which is not right either for a Simson. Some parts are blued that should be strawed, some are strawed that should be blued. A little high for a parts gun, but not too bad!
The number 1 markings are a little funny given that the parts are from different guns. Thor

wterrell · 07-23-2002, 11:15 PM

A put-together gun? or a gun good for parts?

Hugh · 07-24-2002, 12:25 AM

Wes,
I bought this one last week from the same guy that has that one on auction, it is all matching except for the TD lever and mag, and is a police gun with both safetys. It is SN 11 and I paid less for it than that one is selling for.

max2cam · 07-24-2002, 03:40 PM

On the first photo of that gun notice the apparent tool marks on the milled out flat behind the toggle cam-ramp area of the frame.

How common is it for this spot on the frame to be perfectly smooth without machine tooling marks and how common for there to be marks there?

My 1938 has some machine tool traces in that area, but I thought earlier guns would not. Or did WWI production guns show more tooling blems as well?

Hugh · 07-24-2002, 05:19 PM

<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
max2cam,

It is common for there to be some circular milling marks in this area. However, on that #1 gun, those look more like "engine-turning" marks rather than milling marks. That "1" looks funny also. I think somebody got carried away in the bidding frenzy for that gun to sell for what it did. When I was bidding on the Simson that I bought from "Goofy", I called him and discussed those two Simsons with him. He said that the #1 gun didn't look right to him, and the one that I bought was a much better gun. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

John Sabato · 07-24-2002, 05:49 PM

there are some unnumbered Lugers around and this looks to me like it was an unnumbered gun (either a sneak or a parts gun put together after the war) that somebody did a poor job of stamping a "1" on in hopes of selling it for big bucks...

Looks like they were successful. [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]

Another possibility is that this is one of those post war east German frames we were discussing a couple of weeks ago and it was put together with a Suhl toggle...

Just my $0.02

max2cam · 07-24-2002, 10:09 PM

Yes, that does look like engine turning on that frame now that Hugh mentioned that.

Thanks.

Is that discussion of post-war East German frames still around? I'd like to read that. The way it was stated makes it sound like there are post-war E.G. "manufactured" Luger frames. Are there?

wterrell · 07-24-2002, 10:28 PM

Hugh,

Looks as though the machining under the safely lever was done recently. There are no marks to show that the safety lever was toggled back and forth, as is usual with any other pistol.

Johnny Peppers · 07-24-2002, 11:41 PM

If his next Luger is serial number 111 we will know that he has only one number die.

Hugh · 07-25-2002, 01:46 AM

Naw, Johnny, he's got two "1" dies, cuz the wunz on my gun don look like the wun on that gun <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Lugerdoc · 07-25-2002, 08:35 AM

Max2cam, Yes there are new EG made PO8 frames. These were made without the lanyard loop or stock lug. Tom H.

max2cam · 07-25-2002, 02:42 PM

Are these East German frames found in the recent batches of imported VOPO Lugers?

Orv Reichert · 07-26-2002, 03:14 AM

They are as Tom H described...and really rough machining. Usually, they have an N prefix![but not always]

Orv

Lugerdoc · 07-31-2002, 10:23 AM

To my knowledge, the new EG made frames were NOT used on their reworks, just on the N prefix, all new production pistols. Tom

Doubs · 07-31-2002, 02:48 PM

tacfoley, our gun trade isn't as heavily regulated as yours and the buyer also shares in the responsibility to determine that his/her purchase is exactly what the seller says it is. "Caveat Emptor" certainly applies to any and all firearms transactions.

While I like the idea of the seller being held legally responsible for guaranteeing authenticity of any firearm sold, I also believe that the less government, the better.

Orv Reichert · 07-31-2002, 02:54 PM

TAC!

Most yanks are scared of getting sued. And, you would have to be able to prove that the seller KNEW it was a bad gun and he INTENDED to defraud the buyer. Even then, the authorities may not prosecute...especially if the victim got his money back.

It helps if the bad guy or victim is Famous! ..then, they want the TV time and go after it!

Because of this, most folks are just happy to get their money back.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing
-- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

Orv Reichert

wterrell · 07-31-2002, 10:06 PM

[quote]Dear American Persons - please enlighten this poor old fart sitting on the other side of the wet bit, but don't you have an organisation like the Trading and Advertising standards authority like we do over here in the backward old UK? <hr></blockquote>

Tacfoley,

We 'murkuns do not need a gov't to protect us from cradle to grave. We live our lives as an adventure, relying on our skill and pluck! The means with which we achieve truth, justice, and the 'murkun way is by brute force. That is why we lug iron on our side of the big wet, and sometimes on yours. (And the bad guys walk kinda funny after we are through with them.)

------------KIT CARSON-------------

07-23-2002, 11:08 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	A parts gun, Simson chambered would be around 1925 vintage and rust blued. Barrel appears salt blued as does EJECTOR which is not right either for a Simson. Some parts are blued that should be strawed, some are strawed that should be blued. A little high for a parts gun, but not too bad! The number 1 markings are a little funny given that the parts are from different guns. Thor __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-23-2002, 11:15 PM	#3
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A put-together gun? or a gun good for parts? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-24-2002, 12:25 AM	#4
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Wes, I bought this one last week from the same guy that has that one on auction, it is all matching except for the TD lever and mag, and is a police gun with both safetys. It is SN 11 and I paid less for it than that one is selling for. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-24-2002, 05:19 PM	#6
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> max2cam, It is common for there to be some circular milling marks in this area. However, on that #1 gun, those look more like "engine-turning" marks rather than milling marks. That "1" looks funny also. I think somebody got carried away in the bidding frenzy for that gun to sell for what it did. When I was bidding on the Simson that I bought from "Goofy", I called him and discussed those two Simsons with him. He said that the #1 gun didn't look right to him, and the one that I bought was a much better gun. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-24-2002, 05:49 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	there are some unnumbered Lugers around and this looks to me like it was an unnumbered gun (either a sneak or a parts gun put together after the war) that somebody did a poor job of stamping a "1" on in hopes of selling it for big bucks... Looks like they were successful. [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] Another possibility is that this is one of those post war east German frames we were discussing a couple of weeks ago and it was put together with a Suhl toggle... Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-23-2002, 11:00 PM	#1
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Serial #1 Luger Please tell me about this Simson & Suhl Co. Luger, serial #1: (1-1/2 hrs. left on auction) http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=2976713 __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-24-2002, 03:40 PM	#5
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	On the first photo of that gun notice the apparent tool marks on the milled out flat behind the toggle cam-ramp area of the frame. How common is it for this spot on the frame to be perfectly smooth without machine tooling marks and how common for there to be marks there? My 1938 has some machine tool traces in that area, but I thought earlier guns would not. Or did WWI production guns show more tooling blems as well?

07-24-2002, 10:09 PM	#8
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, that does look like engine turning on that frame now that Hugh mentioned that. Thanks. Is that discussion of post-war East German frames still around? I'd like to read that. The way it was stated makes it sound like there are post-war E.G. "manufactured" Luger frames. Are there?

07-24-2002, 10:28 PM	#9
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hugh, Looks as though the machining under the safely lever was done recently. There are no marks to show that the safety lever was toggled back and forth, as is usual with any other pistol. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-24-2002, 11:41 PM	#10
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	If his next Luger is serial number 111 we will know that he has only one number die.

07-25-2002, 01:46 AM	#11
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Naw, Johnny, he's got two "1" dies, cuz the wunz on my gun don look like the wun on that gun <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-25-2002, 08:35 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Max2cam, Yes there are new EG made PO8 frames. These were made without the lanyard loop or stock lug. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-25-2002, 02:42 PM	#13
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Are these East German frames found in the recent batches of imported VOPO Lugers?

07-26-2002, 03:14 AM	#14
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	They are as Tom H described...and really rough machining. Usually, they have an N prefix![but not always] Orv __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-31-2002, 10:23 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	To my knowledge, the new EG made frames were NOT used on their reworks, just on the N prefix, all new production pistols. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

07-31-2002, 02:48 PM	#16
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	tacfoley, our gun trade isn't as heavily regulated as yours and the buyer also shares in the responsibility to determine that his/her purchase is exactly what the seller says it is. "Caveat Emptor" certainly applies to any and all firearms transactions. While I like the idea of the seller being held legally responsible for guaranteeing authenticity of any firearm sold, I also believe that the less government, the better.

07-31-2002, 02:54 PM	#17
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	TAC! Most yanks are scared of getting sued. And, you would have to be able to prove that the seller KNEW it was a bad gun and he INTENDED to defraud the buyer. Even then, the authorities may not prosecute...especially if the victim got his money back. It helps if the bad guy or victim is Famous! ..then, they want the TV time and go after it! Because of this, most folks are just happy to get their money back. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-31-2002, 10:06 PM	#18
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote]Dear American Persons - please enlighten this poor old fart sitting on the other side of the wet bit, but don't you have an organisation like the Trading and Advertising standards authority like we do over here in the backward old UK? <hr></blockquote> Tacfoley, We 'murkuns do not need a gov't to protect us from cradle to grave. We live our lives as an adventure, relying on our skill and pluck! The means with which we achieve truth, justice, and the 'murkun way is by brute force. That is why we lug iron on our side of the big wet, and sometimes on yours. (And the bad guys walk kinda funny after we are through with them.) ------------KIT CARSON------------- __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------