Bulgarian Commercial

Herb · 08-04-2002, 12:34 AM

Has anyone ever heard of a Bulgarian commerical Luger. A 5 digit serial number, numbered in the commercial style, No markings over the reciever or on the toggles, no proof marks??

Johnny Peppers · 08-04-2002, 01:48 AM

Herb,
What makes it a Bulgarian if there are no markings? What type Luger is it, and what is the serial number?
There are a number of fake 1900 Bulgarians out there, but they are well marked (almost).

Ron Wood · 08-04-2002, 03:46 AM

I'm with Johnny. What makes it a Bulgarian? Does it have a grip safety? Does it have a stock lug? If it is a 5-digit serial number is it in the 20000 range? Is it an old or new model? Are the safety lever markings Cyrillic?

Herb · 08-04-2002, 03:14 PM

The extractor has the cryllic markings, there is no lanyard loop or well, no stock lug and the lower rear of the frame is drilled for the lanyard loop but it is not there. Serial number is 50202 and 02 is on the rear toggle, safety bar, bottom of take down lever, top of safety lever, safety sear and on several internal parts. Full #'s on frame front and under barrel. The cryllic markings under the safety lever have been milled off.

Dwight Gruber · 08-04-2002, 05:56 PM

Herb, I have seen one of these which has been "sanitized" of its upper markings--is this the case with the one you refer to? Kenyon's example of the 1908 Bulgarian shows the serial numbering in the commercial style which you describe, but your reported serial number is way out of his reported range.

--Dwight

Herb · 08-04-2002, 06:20 PM

Dwight, it appears to have been arsnel refinished, the blueing is 99+% and it appears to be new. The inside is perfect, not a mark. No indication of any kind of proof anywhere, Nothing over the chamber or on the toggles. The grips are repro and new. It came with a grey parkerized mag with an unnumbered base, also new.

Ron Wood · 08-04-2002, 06:30 PM

It would appear that the gun in question started out life as a 1908 Bulgarian, but as Dwight observed, the serial number is way out of line. The max serial number would be 5000 for the first contract and 5000C for the second. It is either an unknown variation or a nicely reworked/renumbered 1908 Bulgarian military. I would bet on the latter.

Herb · 08-04-2002, 06:50 PM

Ron, I have a feeling that you are probably right. I have heard that the Russians did some of that at the end of the war for commericial sales but haven't been able to find any definitive info on them. Care to hazard a guess as to it's value?

Ron Wood · 08-04-2002, 07:00 PM

I probably should observe your tagline "It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt", but I don't have that much sense. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Perhaps $600 would seem like a good starting guess for a nice reworked shooter, and go up or down from there depending on how badly you want it.

Herb · 08-15-2004, 09:45 PM

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> I was exchanging email with Dwight today about commercial serial nembers and he suggested that I post some pictures of the Bulgarian commercial Luger. Well, here they are for you comments.

Herb · 08-15-2004, 09:47 PM

Three more photos--

Dwight Gruber · 08-16-2004, 12:20 AM

Herb,

Thanks for posting the photos, the gun is very interesting.

There was an informative Bulgarian Luger thread on another Forum, you can find it if you follow this link.

Your example is heavily buffed, and I feel it safe to say that such buffing would have removed any numbers which might be present anywhere on the exposed blued surface of the gun. The numbers which are present are unexpectedly sharp. The number on the takedown lever is in a different typeface, and looks partially buffed away.

I would hazard a guess that this Luger's serial# originally ended in 02, and that the buffing process necessitated the creation of a completely new serial number, picked essentially at random. It would be interestng to see the number stamping on the trigger and the internal parts.

--Dwight

Frank · 08-16-2004, 10:41 AM

Herb and All, I had one that would be an exact duplicate of the one shown in the photos, except for the numbers. I bought it as a shooter and is now reworked into my "Baby". The lack of markings across the top, heavy buffing, lack of stock lug and lanyard loop, safety lever recess, etc.

My original thought was it was a refinished Bulgarian that had been "over finished"!!

John Sabato · 08-16-2004, 11:17 AM

If you look closely at the back of the frame, you can see where the holes for the lanyard loop have been filled... Regardless of it's origin, the extreme buffing on this one clearly make this just a shooter...

I stand corrected on this by Ron Rood... thanks Ron! ... I can still see a ghost of a circle on the rear frame shot where a lanyard loop might be attached, but that is probably just the photograph, but the absence of the lanyard recess bears out your thesis that this IS an original Bulgarian commercial... <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> fortunately, the second half of my statement is accurate... otherwise I would have to record making a mistake today in my archive

08-04-2002, 12:34 AM	#1
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Bulgarian Commercial Has anyone ever heard of a Bulgarian commerical Luger. A 5 digit serial number, numbered in the commercial style, No markings over the reciever or on the toggles, no proof marks?? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-04-2002, 03:46 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I'm with Johnny. What makes it a Bulgarian? Does it have a grip safety? Does it have a stock lug? If it is a 5-digit serial number is it in the 20000 range? Is it an old or new model? Are the safety lever markings Cyrillic? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-04-2002, 03:14 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The extractor has the cryllic markings, there is no lanyard loop or well, no stock lug and the lower rear of the frame is drilled for the lanyard loop but it is not there. Serial number is 50202 and 02 is on the rear toggle, safety bar, bottom of take down lever, top of safety lever, safety sear and on several internal parts. Full #'s on frame front and under barrel. The cryllic markings under the safety lever have been milled off. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-04-2002, 06:20 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dwight, it appears to have been arsnel refinished, the blueing is 99+% and it appears to be new. The inside is perfect, not a mark. No indication of any kind of proof anywhere, Nothing over the chamber or on the toggles. The grips are repro and new. It came with a grey parkerized mag with an unnumbered base, also new. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-04-2002, 06:30 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	It would appear that the gun in question started out life as a 1908 Bulgarian, but as Dwight observed, the serial number is way out of line. The max serial number would be 5000 for the first contract and 5000C for the second. It is either an unknown variation or a nicely reworked/renumbered 1908 Bulgarian military. I would bet on the latter. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-04-2002, 01:48 AM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, What makes it a Bulgarian if there are no markings? What type Luger is it, and what is the serial number? There are a number of fake 1900 Bulgarians out there, but they are well marked (almost).

08-04-2002, 05:56 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Herb, I have seen one of these which has been "sanitized" of its upper markings--is this the case with the one you refer to? Kenyon's example of the 1908 Bulgarian shows the serial numbering in the commercial style which you describe, but your reported serial number is way out of his reported range. --Dwight

08-04-2002, 06:50 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, I have a feeling that you are probably right. I have heard that the Russians did some of that at the end of the war for commericial sales but haven't been able to find any definitive info on them. Care to hazard a guess as to it's value? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-04-2002, 07:00 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I probably should observe your tagline "It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt", but I don't have that much sense. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Perhaps $600 would seem like a good starting guess for a nice reworked shooter, and go up or down from there depending on how badly you want it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-15-2004, 09:45 PM	#10
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> I was exchanging email with Dwight today about commercial serial nembers and he suggested that I post some pictures of the Bulgarian commercial Luger. Well, here they are for you comments. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-15-2004, 09:47 PM	#11
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Three more photos-- __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-16-2004, 12:20 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Herb, Thanks for posting the photos, the gun is very interesting. There was an informative Bulgarian Luger thread on another Forum, you can find it if you follow this link. Your example is heavily buffed, and I feel it safe to say that such buffing would have removed any numbers which might be present anywhere on the exposed blued surface of the gun. The numbers which are present are unexpectedly sharp. The number on the takedown lever is in a different typeface, and looks partially buffed away. I would hazard a guess that this Luger's serial# originally ended in 02, and that the buffing process necessitated the creation of a completely new serial number, picked essentially at random. It would be interestng to see the number stamping on the trigger and the internal parts. --Dwight

08-16-2004, 10:41 AM	#13
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Herb and All, I had one that would be an exact duplicate of the one shown in the photos, except for the numbers. I bought it as a shooter and is now reworked into my "Baby". The lack of markings across the top, heavy buffing, lack of stock lug and lanyard loop, safety lever recess, etc. My original thought was it was a refinished Bulgarian that had been "over finished"!!

08-16-2004, 11:17 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	If you look closely at the back of the frame, you can see where the holes for the lanyard loop have been filled... Regardless of it's origin, the extreme buffing on this one clearly make this just a shooter... I stand corrected on this by Ron Rood... thanks Ron! ... I can still see a ghost of a circle on the rear frame shot where a lanyard loop might be attached, but that is probably just the photograph, but the absence of the lanyard recess bears out your thesis that this IS an original Bulgarian commercial... <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> fortunately, the second half of my statement is accurate... otherwise I would have to record making a mistake today in my archive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*