Post WWII French Lugers...?

Pete Ebbink · 08-23-2003, 06:59 PM

Noticed in this month's AutoMag newsletter (issued by NAPCA) that a Mr. Joel Giraudeau writes about some post-war French made luger production...

Can anyone direct me to some books so that I might read up about these pistols...I was certainly not aware of such French production, until I read it in AutoMag...but being a relative "new kid on the block", I am sure I miss more than most folks remember...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Johnny C. Kitchens · 08-23-2003, 11:11 PM

There is the story that the French took up production of Lugers using existing parts at the Mauser factory after the war ended, until they had to turn the factory over to the Russians. It is this little part of the Lugers history used to explain the existance of some 1945 and 1946 marked Lugers...

mauro · 08-24-2003, 10:12 AM

Hello Pete,
you can find information about Mauser production under French control (1945-47) in my book at page 91 and 92. August Weiss, Mauser responsible of this production, estimates in 2506 the total amount of Lugers produced in this period. Both P08 and LP08 were produced. In my book I have written the history of this production and also the use done by Franch Army and Gendarmerie. Let me know if you need more help.
Ciao
Mauro

unspellable · 08-25-2003, 09:32 AM

Were any of these French occupation pistols chambered for the 7.65 mm cartridge?

mauro · 08-25-2003, 09:43 AM

No unspellable,
as far as I know all P08 made under French occupation are in 9mm.
Ciao

The Wizard · 09-06-2003, 07:36 PM

Just to correct a incorrect idea put forth by Johnny C. Kitchens. The Mauser factory was not turned over to the Russians. It remain in the French zone. The Russian did protest that the French were using it to produce weapon of war which was a no no according to the agreement between the Allies.

mauro · 09-07-2003, 05:56 AM

Absolutely correct Wizard.
Actually the Mauser produced guns under French occupation starting from the end of WWII up to the 1947. After that all tools were destroyed. August Weiss, that was in charge of Parabellum production during French occupation (and also before) saved from destruction all blue prints related to the Parabellum production (also all blue prints related to the tools for producing Parabellum).
These blue prints were available when Mauser produced again the Parabellum (1969-1985) but the firm thought very expensive to produce again all tools and then it bought all tools from the Swiss Berna arsenal.
Whit these tools, Mauser carried out the first Parabellum Model called 29/70, very similar to the 1929 Swiss model. Due to the fact that these models were not so well accepted by the Luger community, the tools were modified in order to produce the model 06/73, very close to the 06 model.

It is possible to find a description of Parabellum models (P08 and LP08) made under French control at page 91 and 92 of my book.

Ciao

John Sabato · 09-08-2003, 11:45 AM

Mauro,

Do these post war blue-prints for both the parabellum pistol and the tools to produce this pistol still exist? All of the blueprints that I have seen for the Luger are dated in 1913...

unspellable · 09-08-2003, 02:17 PM

I have heard that the tooling Mauser acquired from Switzerland was for the most part in too poor a condition to be satisfactory and that Mauser used a lot new tooling, perhaps the majority of the line.

Mauser must have blue prints for the re-intro pistols. There are numerous differences between them and vintage Parabellums.

mauro · 09-08-2003, 05:11 PM

Hello John,
I have two Mauser blue prints. One of them is dated 7.15.41. You can see these blue prints at page 85 of my book.

Unspellable, as far as I know Mauser was obliged to invest a lot of money for updating the line. I guess you are right.

Ciao

Russ · 09-08-2003, 10:14 PM

Pete
I talked to Don Hollack in Washington State about this variation. He has been collecting the cerial#s for this variation. It is my understanding that there is not very many known.

Russ <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 09-08-2003, 10:31 PM

Thanks for the info. guys... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Did also hear from Tom Knox, Sr. at NAPCA. These little-known guns are written up in some French magazine articles. Tom has one (in French) that appeared but does not have the others...

I will send Tom an e-mail suggesting an English translation be posted in an up-coming AutoMag issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 09-09-2003, 12:34 PM

Got a follow-up reply from Tom Knox, Sr. at NAPCA. He is working on getting all the French articles and may attempt to secure the French author's and the publisher's permission for a possible English reprint in a future AutoMag issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

LU1900 · 09-10-2003, 09:24 AM

.........

John Sabato · 09-10-2003, 11:13 AM

LU1900

thanks for the data... can you tell us the source of your information? Very little has apparently been documented about these Lugers.

LU1900 · 09-10-2003, 11:39 AM

.........

08-23-2003, 06:59 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Post WWII French Lugers...? Noticed in this month's AutoMag newsletter (issued by NAPCA) that a Mr. Joel Giraudeau writes about some post-war French made luger production... Can anyone direct me to some books so that I might read up about these pistols...I was certainly not aware of such French production, until I read it in AutoMag...but being a relative "new kid on the block", I am sure I miss more than most folks remember... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-23-2003, 11:11 PM	#2
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	There is the story that the French took up production of Lugers using existing parts at the Mauser factory after the war ended, until they had to turn the factory over to the Russians. It is this little part of the Lugers history used to explain the existance of some 1945 and 1946 marked Lugers... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

08-24-2003, 10:12 AM	#3
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Pete, you can find information about Mauser production under French control (1945-47) in my book at page 91 and 92. August Weiss, Mauser responsible of this production, estimates in 2506 the total amount of Lugers produced in this period. Both P08 and LP08 were produced. In my book I have written the history of this production and also the use done by Franch Army and Gendarmerie. Let me know if you need more help. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

08-25-2003, 09:43 AM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	No unspellable, as far as I know all P08 made under French occupation are in 9mm. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-06-2003, 07:36 PM	#6
The Wizard User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 67 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just to correct a incorrect idea put forth by Johnny C. Kitchens. The Mauser factory was not turned over to the Russians. It remain in the French zone. The Russian did protest that the French were using it to produce weapon of war which was a no no according to the agreement between the Allies. __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem. War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war.

08-25-2003, 09:32 AM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Were any of these French occupation pistols chambered for the 7.65 mm cartridge?

09-07-2003, 05:56 AM	#7
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Absolutely correct Wizard. Actually the Mauser produced guns under French occupation starting from the end of WWII up to the 1947. After that all tools were destroyed. August Weiss, that was in charge of Parabellum production during French occupation (and also before) saved from destruction all blue prints related to the Parabellum production (also all blue prints related to the tools for producing Parabellum). These blue prints were available when Mauser produced again the Parabellum (1969-1985) but the firm thought very expensive to produce again all tools and then it bought all tools from the Swiss Berna arsenal. Whit these tools, Mauser carried out the first Parabellum Model called 29/70, very similar to the 1929 Swiss model. Due to the fact that these models were not so well accepted by the Luger community, the tools were modified in order to produce the model 06/73, very close to the 06 model. It is possible to find a description of Parabellum models (P08 and LP08) made under French control at page 91 and 92 of my book. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-08-2003, 11:45 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Mauro, Do these post war blue-prints for both the parabellum pistol and the tools to produce this pistol still exist? All of the blueprints that I have seen for the Luger are dated in 1913... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-08-2003, 02:17 PM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I have heard that the tooling Mauser acquired from Switzerland was for the most part in too poor a condition to be satisfactory and that Mauser used a lot new tooling, perhaps the majority of the line. Mauser must have blue prints for the re-intro pistols. There are numerous differences between them and vintage Parabellums.

09-08-2003, 05:11 PM	#10
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello John, I have two Mauser blue prints. One of them is dated 7.15.41. You can see these blue prints at page 85 of my book. Unspellable, as far as I know Mauser was obliged to invest a lot of money for updating the line. I guess you are right. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-08-2003, 10:14 PM	#11
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Pete I talked to Don Hollack in Washington State about this variation. He has been collecting the cerial#s for this variation. It is my understanding that there is not very many known. Russ <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

09-08-2003, 10:31 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for the info. guys... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Did also hear from Tom Knox, Sr. at NAPCA. These little-known guns are written up in some French magazine articles. Tom has one (in French) that appeared but does not have the others... I will send Tom an e-mail suggesting an English translation be posted in an up-coming AutoMag issue... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-09-2003, 12:34 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Got a follow-up reply from Tom Knox, Sr. at NAPCA. He is working on getting all the French articles and may attempt to secure the French author's and the publisher's permission for a possible English reprint in a future AutoMag issue... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-10-2003, 09:24 AM	#14
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 42 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

09-10-2003, 11:13 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	LU1900 thanks for the data... can you tell us the source of your information? Very little has apparently been documented about these Lugers. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-10-2003, 11:39 AM	#16
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 42 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/