Production Dates???

Lyn Islaub · 04-03-2005, 07:57 PM

I recently read a thread in the New Collectors Forum that spiked my curiosity and made me question an assumption I had long considered to be fact.
The question centered around "if I have a Luger with a 'b' suffix, can I assume it was made in February, or March?" The answer was in the affirmative and because that particular Luger series (byf 42) started production with S/N 500 it made sense that if pistols were produced at a rate of about 10,000 a month his byf could have been produced sometime in March.
Up till reading this, I had always been of the understanding that both DWM and Mauser operated under a September 01-August 31st financial accounting fiscal year like many European and US manufacturers and that by January of the new production year several thousand pistols had already been assembled. I cannot remember where I read that factoid, but wondered if any of the rest of you were under the same belief.
Thx, Lyn

Edward Tinker · 04-03-2005, 08:57 PM

Lyn, I can not say for sure, but I do know that some years they started each year (I was under the impression it started in Jan-Dec, but don't know that for sure), except for during the late 20's and 30's when some just carried through without regard to starting over...

True experts out there, I'd like to know too?

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 04-04-2005, 03:55 AM

Lyn,

It doesn't appear the a fiscal-year consideration has any bearing on serial numbering.

Commercial Lugers started with serial#1 in 1901, and continued in an unbroken number sequence until 1921 when the number sequence reached 92000. Commercial numbering then continued in the military style, four digits with a letter suffix, starting with i, and continuing into the v suffix block in 1929.

WWI Imperial P-08 numbering at DWM began with serial#1 in 1908, and ran consecutively into the l suffix block in 1911. From 1912 through the end of Imperial production in 1918 serial numbering began with #1 at the beginning of each calendar year. Erfurt followed this serial numbering scheme throughout their production.

Military Luger production at Mauser began in late 1934, and continued until November, 1942. The 1934 K date guns started with 1 ns (no suffix) and the serial numbers continued in an unbroken sequence throughout production. In the intervening years letter suffixes cycled through the alphabet fully three times, ending in the m block.

Detailed serial number charts can be found in Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Third Reich Lugers", compiled from the information collected for many years by a number of advanced collectors.

After looking at those charts, I conclude that the statistical dating approach you propose is interesting but very approximate, certainly depending on Stills's information.

--Dwight

Lyn Islaub · 04-04-2005, 08:40 PM

Dwight,
You are right of course and after thinking about it a bit longer I started to come to the same conclusion. These senior moments are coming more and more often and I hate it.
Thx, Lyn

saxman · 04-07-2005, 05:16 PM

So if there's anyone else in the same boat with me, we can never know even the year of manufacture of our Lugers. The date was ground off and a 1920 property marked stamped in it's place. The 4-digit number with h suffix is military, because it's before the i-block beginning of the 'alphabet commercials'. All that can be determined is that it's an imperial DWM '08, made before 1920. Mine had a unit mark ground off the front strap, reinforcing the imperial origin (imprint of marking visible on back of front strap). So, I just call it a '1920' and be done with it, since that could include quite a variety of pistols, including 'put-togethers' after the war. Hey, maybe these will someday become another niche collectible!

Luke · 04-07-2005, 07:15 PM

Dwight -

Until recently I had not developed an interest in DWM commercials, but your comment above is interesting.

Quote: "Commercial Lugers started with serial#1 in 1901, and continued in an unbroken number sequence until 1921 when the number sequence reached 92000."

Do you know if anyone has attempted to block that out such that it is possible to determine year of production from the serial number? For example: SN 70101 should have been produced in 1910 (as an example).
I just made that up; I have no idea in which year SN 70101 might actually have been produced !

Luke

Dwight Gruber · 04-11-2005, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke
Dwight -

Until recently I had not developed an interest in DWM commercials, but your comment above is interesting.

Quote: "Commercial Lugers started with serial#1 in 1901, and continued in an unbroken number sequence until 1921 when the number sequence reached 92000."

Do you know if anyone has attempted to block that out such that it is possible to determine year of production from the serial number? For example: SN 70101 should have been produced in 1910 (as an example).
I just made that up; I have no idea in which year SN 70101 might actually have been produced !

Luke

Luke,

Broadly, no, that isn't likely. One can make some educated guesses around known serial number production--the early guns and Test Eagles, Dutch tests, commercial-range contract pieces, and the like--but in general, no. Part (but only part) of the problem is in not knowing daily production capability, or if comercial production was continuous or alternated with non-commercial-range contracts. These are questions I -REALLY- want to know the answers to!

I understand that the DWM company document archive exists somewhere in Germany (Gerben van Vlimmerin is the source of this info, iirc), these facts must be just waiting to be unearthed!

70101 is a quarter of the way between two known, three-c/X P-08 Commercial Armys. But it took the database for that.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 04-11-2005, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by saxman
So if there's anyone else in the same boat with me, we can never know even the year of manufacture of our Lugers. The date was ground off and a 1920 property marked stamped in it's place. The 4-digit number with h suffix is military, because it's before the i-block beginning of the 'alphabet commercials'. All that can be determined is that it's an imperial DWM '08, made before 1920. Mine had a unit mark ground off the front strap, reinforcing the imperial origin (imprint of marking visible on back of front strap). So, I just call it a '1920' and be done with it, since that could include quite a variety of pistols, including 'put-togethers' after the war. Hey, maybe these will someday become another niche collectible!

Saxman,

With the information you provide, and the aid of a good book (Still's Imperial Lugers) one can make an informed approximation.

Of DWM, only 1915-1918 were produced in sufficient numbers to reach (and pass) the h suffix. Unfortunately, of those years, 2% of 1915; 1% of 1916; 1% of 1917; and 1% of 1918 are reported unit marked, so that statistic doesn't help much to narrow it down.

--Dwight

saxman · 04-12-2005, 04:03 PM

Dwight; Thanks. In looking over Mr. Tinker's new '1920' polizei pistolen, I remembered that one source characterized all '1920's as 'Treaty of Versailles' guns, since Germany was forbidden under the treaty to re-arm. They produced guns for police use and used parts of different pistols to do it on some guns. That would describe mine. I may try to decipher the imprint of the marking on the inside of the front strap to see if it's police or military. In this case, would not the 1920, generally considered a property mark, become a date, marking the pistol as legitimately made under the treaty?

Dwight Gruber · 04-12-2005, 11:11 PM

Saxman,

A couple of things.

The "1920" property mark was stamped on weapons to demonstrate that they belonged to the government. This was intended to avert theft. That the number is the same as the year of the property mark decree is either coincidence or was selected because it was convenient. It is demonstrably not a date, there are guns dated 1920 and 1921 which also have the 1920 property mark.

It would be interesting to see photos of your Luger's chamber top, and other markings. The 1920 stamp is usually stamped in a different manner, with different dies and variability, from a date stamp.

Does your Luger have a GERMANY export stamp? Does it have a sear safety which would indicate Police usage?

Deciphering the grip strap marking will certainly tell you more.

--Dwight

MauserLugers · 04-13-2005, 12:56 AM

If I remember correctly there is a G-date Luger (1935 production) which is owned by Doug Smith that has a 1920 property date on it. It is shown on pg 220 of "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" by Jan Still. This indicates that certain depots were still marking suff with the 1920 property date as late as 1935. There were a lot of reworked Lugers in the 1920 until 1929-30 time frame with many different degree's of workmanship and extent of rework being done. Makes for lots of different variations with different features. -- Bill

04-07-2005, 05:16 PM	#5
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So if there's anyone else in the same boat with me, we can never know even the year of manufacture of our Lugers. The date was ground off and a 1920 property marked stamped in it's place. The 4-digit number with h suffix is military, because it's before the i-block beginning of the 'alphabet commercials'. All that can be determined is that it's an imperial DWM '08, made before 1920. Mine had a unit mark ground off the front strap, reinforcing the imperial origin (imprint of marking visible on back of front strap). So, I just call it a '1920' and be done with it, since that could include quite a variety of pistols, including 'put-togethers' after the war. Hey, maybe these will someday become another niche collectible! __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

04-07-2005, 07:15 PM	#6
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Dwight - Until recently I had not developed an interest in DWM commercials, but your comment above is interesting. Quote: "Commercial Lugers started with serial#1 in 1901, and continued in an unbroken number sequence until 1921 when the number sequence reached 92000." Do you know if anyone has attempted to block that out such that it is possible to determine year of production from the serial number? For example: SN 70101 should have been produced in 1910 (as an example). I just made that up; I have no idea in which year SN 70101 might actually have been produced ! Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

04-12-2005, 04:03 PM	#9
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight; Thanks. In looking over Mr. Tinker's new '1920' polizei pistolen, I remembered that one source characterized all '1920's as 'Treaty of Versailles' guns, since Germany was forbidden under the treaty to re-arm. They produced guns for police use and used parts of different pistols to do it on some guns. That would describe mine. I may try to decipher the imprint of the marking on the inside of the front strap to see if it's police or military. In this case, would not the 1920, generally considered a property mark, become a date, marking the pistol as legitimately made under the treaty? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

04-03-2005, 07:57 PM	#1
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Production Dates??? I recently read a thread in the New Collectors Forum that spiked my curiosity and made me question an assumption I had long considered to be fact. The question centered around "if I have a Luger with a 'b' suffix, can I assume it was made in February, or March?" The answer was in the affirmative and because that particular Luger series (byf 42) started production with S/N 500 it made sense that if pistols were produced at a rate of about 10,000 a month his byf could have been produced sometime in March. Up till reading this, I had always been of the understanding that both DWM and Mauser operated under a September 01-August 31st financial accounting fiscal year like many European and US manufacturers and that by January of the new production year several thousand pistols had already been assembled. I cannot remember where I read that factoid, but wondered if any of the rest of you were under the same belief. Thx, Lyn

04-03-2005, 08:57 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Lyn, I can not say for sure, but I do know that some years they started each year (I was under the impression it started in Jan-Dec, but don't know that for sure), except for during the late 20's and 30's when some just carried through without regard to starting over... True experts out there, I'd like to know too? Ed

04-04-2005, 03:55 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Lyn, It doesn't appear the a fiscal-year consideration has any bearing on serial numbering. Commercial Lugers started with serial#1 in 1901, and continued in an unbroken number sequence until 1921 when the number sequence reached 92000. Commercial numbering then continued in the military style, four digits with a letter suffix, starting with i, and continuing into the v suffix block in 1929. WWI Imperial P-08 numbering at DWM began with serial#1 in 1908, and ran consecutively into the l suffix block in 1911. From 1912 through the end of Imperial production in 1918 serial numbering began with #1 at the beginning of each calendar year. Erfurt followed this serial numbering scheme throughout their production. Military Luger production at Mauser began in late 1934, and continued until November, 1942. The 1934 K date guns started with 1 ns (no suffix) and the serial numbers continued in an unbroken sequence throughout production. In the intervening years letter suffixes cycled through the alphabet fully three times, ending in the m block. Detailed serial number charts can be found in Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Third Reich Lugers", compiled from the information collected for many years by a number of advanced collectors. After looking at those charts, I conclude that the statistical dating approach you propose is interesting but very approximate, certainly depending on Stills's information. --Dwight

04-04-2005, 08:40 PM	#4
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Dwight, You are right of course and after thinking about it a bit longer I started to come to the same conclusion. These senior moments are coming more and more often and I hate it. Thx, Lyn

04-12-2005, 11:11 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Saxman, A couple of things. The "1920" property mark was stamped on weapons to demonstrate that they belonged to the government. This was intended to avert theft. That the number is the same as the year of the property mark decree is either coincidence or was selected because it was convenient. It is demonstrably not a date, there are guns dated 1920 and 1921 which also have the 1920 property mark. It would be interesting to see photos of your Luger's chamber top, and other markings. The 1920 stamp is usually stamped in a different manner, with different dies and variability, from a date stamp. Does your Luger have a GERMANY export stamp? Does it have a sear safety which would indicate Police usage? Deciphering the grip strap marking will certainly tell you more. --Dwight

04-13-2005, 12:56 AM	#11
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	If I remember correctly there is a G-date Luger (1935 production) which is owned by Doug Smith that has a 1920 property date on it. It is shown on pg 220 of "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" by Jan Still. This indicates that certain depots were still marking suff with the 1920 property date as late as 1935. There were a lot of reworked Lugers in the 1920 until 1929-30 time frame with many different degree's of workmanship and extent of rework being done. Makes for lots of different variations with different features. -- Bill