Luger pr0duction

[sej-gun]

Hi Luger Collectors.
There is something I am in doubt about.
So I hope that the Forum-members can help / explain it for me and
perhaps others. It is about the Productions line, so the question is
are the following correct?.
1line) 1898-1929: (Loewe) DWM (BKIW)and 1929-1943 Mauser.
2 line) 1910-1925 Erfurt and 1925-1930 Simson and 1930-1942
Krighoff (new tooling?).
3 line) 1928-1947 Swiss. W+F Bern.
Thanks from
Sej-gun

[Vlim]

Hi,

You're pretty close. The DWM / Mauser line existed until around 1948, when it was destroyed after the French were done playing with it.

Of course, for completeness sake there are 2 more 'lines' :

The 1970 - 1997 Mauser postwar production facility.

The 1990's - Current Interarms/Aimco/Stoeger/Orimar line.

Then you have a couple of other ones, like the Stoeger .22 lugers and the Erma lugers, but that's a different story.

[Ron Wood]

I believe that the "3 line" should be 1918-1947

[Edward Tinker]

why would we call the 1st line all three?


DWM and Mauser, although related, i don't beleive was the same machinery?

And Erfurt, would it be only till 1918? I thought it was disbanded by the Allied Commission for fixing pistols?

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

The Erfurt production tooling was sold to Simson in 1925. I suppose the interesting question is, who did they buy it from??

--Dwight

[Vlim]

The DWM and Mauser tooling was the same. Machinery, jigs and tools were shipped from DWM Berlin to Mauser in Oberndorf. It is to be expected that changes and modifications were made, but essentially it was the same line.

As the German government owned the Erfurt tooling, it's safe to assume that the German government got the money. Hmm. An interesting gap between 1918 and 1925, there. I guess that's when the 1914 Erfurts were built <grin>

[drbuster]

Gerben, You may have something there!

[John D.]

Originally posted by sej-gun
..... and 1930-1942 Krighoff (new tooling?)...

Hi Sej-gun.!

A slight correction on this line. Krieghoff manufacture would be 1934 - 1945 inclusive. And yes, I believe they used their own tooling for their production.

Hope his helps!

John D.

[sej-gun]

Hi again
First of all, thanks for the response!!
Is the production lines now correct??
We must say that this is where the machinery stood at that time, and not necessarily
if production was â??onâ?� at the whole time??

1line) 1898-1929: (Loewe) DWM (BKIW)and 1929-1948 Mauser and again 1970-1997.
2 line) 1910-1925 erfurt and 1925-1934 Simson and 1934-1945
Krighoff (new tooling?).
3 line) 1918(17)-1947 Swiss. W+F Bern.
About Erfurt, is it possibly that the machinery stood at Erfurt factory
from 1918 to 1925, whit out no production??
Today I had read in â??FAUSTFEUERWAFFEN der EIDGENOSSENâ?� page 214,
That in spring 1917, the first luger pistols(Swiss) was going into production ??.

Thanks from
Sej-gun

[John D.]

Originally posted by sej-gun
Hi again
First of all, thanks for the response!!
Is the production lines now correct??....

Hi Sej-gun,

I'll only be a happy person when you correct the Krieghoff line as per my post above.. Until then, I'll keep pestering you to fix it

Best to you!!

John D.

[sej-gun]

Hi John
it`s done.
Thanks
Sej-gun

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally posted by sej-gun
About Erfurt, is it possibly that the machinery stood at Erfurt factory
from 1918 to 1925, whit out no production??

There is evidence that P-08 came out of the Erfurt armory between 1918 and 1925. 1918 Erfurt Lugers in the u suffix range have appeared. There are a number of Erfurts known with chamber date stamped 1918/20, appearing to follow Note 4 of the 1910 Marking Instructions. Charlie Sorrentino, in Auto Mag, has suggested that guns like this be considered "Weimar Transitional" pistols.

There are also the disputed 1914 q suffix Erfurts, which some have suggested are late-war or post-war production (a supposition to which I do not subscribe).

The unaswerable question here is, who produced these pistols, and under whose auspices?

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Sej-gun,
I guess it depends on which reference you use. In addition to the reference in "Faustfeuerwaffen der Eidgenossen" by Rutsch, H�¤usler in "Schweizer Faustfeuerwaffwen Armes de poing suisses" states that production began in 1917 and the first issue was in 1918. Reinhart in "Fauistfeuerwaffen II Selbsladepistolen", in "Pistolen und Revolver der Schweiz" and in "Pistolen und Revolver der Schwiez seit 1720" states that production of the 1906 W+F ran from November 1918 until May 1933. It looks like Rutsch and H�¤usler do not quite agree with Reinhart.

[unspellable]

Line one which passed from Lowe/DWM to Mauser was scrapped shortly after WWII.

When Mauser planned to resume production in the 70's they bought the Swiss line. It is my understanding that they found it to be in such poor condition that most of the machinery and tooling was scrapped. Hence almost all of the 70's Mauser line was new equipment.

[Heinz]

Unspellable, that is also my understanding. I also believe that that is what happened with the Simson/ Krieghoff transfer. The tooling was worn out and perhaps much of the machinery. I would like John D's confirmation on that however.

[Dwight Gruber]

Gibson, p.15. In brief, in 1934 Krieghoff either acquired the Erfurt tooling from Simson, or had access to it to pattern new tooling. Gibson favors the latter, and notes that Krieghoff himself claims that the tooling for the HK P-08 was made in Krieghoff's Suhl plant.

Gibson also notes (p.14) that ERMA had taken over the Royal Erfurt arsenal, and it is not known if Simson bought the P-08 tooling directly from ERMA or acquired it in some other way.

Thus:

Line 1: Loewe/DWM_________(BKIW)________>Mauser__>|destroyed|...._>|new tooling|_Mauser_>?
Line 2: Bern___________________________________________________/
Line 3: Erfurt___(ERMA??)_>Simson__>|new tooling|_Krieghoff_>?

--Dwight

[sej-gun]

Hi again
Now I had (hope correct) sat in the changes.
Thanks to you all !!

1 line) 1898-1929: (Loewe) DWM (BKIW)and 1929-1948 Mauser (stop production in 1943, scrapped in 1948) and again 1970-1997 whit new tooling (something from Swiss, 3 line).

2 line) 1910-1925 Erfurt (Erma??) and 1925-1934 Simson and 1934-1945
Krighoff, whit new tooling.

3 line) 1918-1947 Swiss. W+F Bern. Sold to Mauser in 1970.

4 line) At the 1990's - Current Interarms/Aimco/Stoeger/Orimar line.

Thanks from
Sej-gun.

[Ponyman]

May I re-open this thread?

Isn't the Line 3 production based on P06 tooling purchased by Bern from DWM?

What is Interarms' involvement with (Mitchell)/Aimco/Stoeger/Orimar in Line 4?
I understand Line 4 to be Mauser's production beginning in the 1970's - on bought-back DWM-Swiss tooling - SOME of which was imported to USA by Interarms, and some distributed in Europe by Mauser. Any help from Mauro?

Line 5: Production in USA on new tooling funded by Don Mitchell, continued by Aimco and then Stoeger (both of which, like Mitchell, were distribution agents for Orimar). But I recently saw a Stoeger traded on GunBroker with a 1993 chamber date, same year as my Mitchell!!! It had the same large-font LUGER & scrollwork on the left side of the receiver as my Stoeger - but mine has no chamber date. I've been assuming that the Stoegers were built after the Aimco era (I have the Aimco Centenial 1900-2000 commemorative issue) but the 1993 Stoeger on GB throws that theory out the window!!!

Can anyone give a good chronology of the American production series and its principal actors?

[unspellable]

I don't think Interarms had anything to do with the Orimar Lugers. That's probably a case of the fingers typing faster than the brain.

I count five lines. I count the Mauser re-intro line as a seperate line because while they did buy the Bern line, they scrapped most of it and the majority of the Mauser re-intro line was new.

I think the majority of the Mauser re-intro's were destined for the US market via Interarms.

It is my understanding that the Bern line was purchased new from DWM.

I am curious myself about the Orimar story. Why did distribution pass from Mitchell? My understanding is it went from Mitchell to Stoeger, and that the manufacture was Aimco, later changing their name to Orimar. But I wouldn't bet more than $2 on any of my Orimar history.

[Vlim]

I might also add that Erma had nothing to do with the Erfurt arsenal, other than being based in Erfurt as well ('Erfurter Maschinenwerke') and being a commercial company.

Unspellable is correct about the Bern / Mauser line. Although Mauser bought the Bern tooling, virtually nothing was useable, so the tooling was discarded and a new line designed, with a little help of mr. August Weiss who saved many original drawings from the French after the war.

I think that remains of the second line (Simson and Krieghoff) were responsible for some DDR produced parts. No hard evidence, though.