Police Luger Unit Mark

[cirelaw]

Help!!Now I'm really confused!

[Ron Wood]

Eric,
The discussion concerns alinint's original post about his gun.

I too am curious about the prospect of it being rebarreled in the mid to late 1930s. I thought the Riff guns were 9mm?

[cirelaw]

Who wants to open another can of worms! I know when to fold!

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Jan C Still

Dwight
What is the basis of your statement:
"This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938."

I must of missed the documentation that the 29 DWM was first manufactured (1929/early 1930) in .30 cal. and this barrel later changed out for a 9mm barrel. If this is correct some portion of the German police must have armed with .30 caliber Lugers for a few years.
Jan

Jan,

I mis-spoke the dates, did it from memory, shouold have been 1936-1939. That is the time period of use for the Waffenamt power proofs on the receiver and barrel.

DWM was forbidden by the IMKK, under the terms of tlhe Versailles treaty, to manufacture weapons of military caliber (9mm) and military barrel length (100mm). This left the loophole of producing commercial pistols, so all of DWM's Luger production after 1921 had 95mm long, cal. 7.65mm barrels.

After acquiring new DWM produced pistols the police had them rebarrelled to 9mm. Where the barrels came from and where the work was done is unclear. During the period in which Simson had the exclusive P08 contract, they deliverd thousands of 9mm replacement barrels, many opf which have Waffenamt e/6 or e/33 inspection marks (the source of the "Simson rework" mis-identification). Occasionally replacement barrels are seen with Erfurt inspection marks or the Mauser S/42 replacement part code.

Some were rebarrelled close enough in time and place to have commercial proofs, some have various Weimar-period eagle military proofs, some were replaced at the Berlin police armory. The proof stamp used, along with any manufacturer's inspection mark, gives a general indication of where and when the work was done.

There were certainly .30 Parabellums in use by the police at one time or another. Karl Fischer's police equipment manuals pre-1944 (at least) include both the 9mm P08 and 7.65mm Parabellum. Lugers with Bremen police unit marks are found with 7.65 stamped on their receivers, cancelled when the pistols were rebarrelled to 9mm. Pistols of the Reichsbahnpolizei (rail police) are found in .30 cal. One of the police battalions sent to the occupied territories (can't tell you which one right now, don't have the reference at hand) was issued a number of "P08 in.30 cal."

But it does appear that the police went to a great deal of trouble to have their Lugers in 9mm, and the dearth of examples in 7.65mm indicates they were very successful in doing so.

--Dwight

[Don M]

The idea that the blank toggles on 29 DWMs were left over from the canceled Riff Contract was discussed at length over a year ago in http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25442 and http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...WM-BKIW-Lugers. In brief, the conclusion was that evidence strongly indicated that too many blank toggle Lugers were produced (approx. 15,000) to be explained by the Riff order for "a couple of thousand" pistols as recalled by August Weiss. Has additional evidence been discovered?

Regarding DWM/BKIW production of 9mm Lugers, my research has strongly suggested that, sometime following the disbandment of the IMKK in January 1927, they resumed manufacturing 9mm Lugers with 100mm barrels for the police. This too has been discussed on the forums (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...or-Joop-or-Don). While the pistol that started this thread may have been rebarreled in the late 1930s, I believe its original barrel was also 9mm.

[alanint]

Judging from the evidence of the pistol itself, I believe that the gun retains an original, not a replacement 9mm barrel.
Some points to consider:
Would they have installed a new barrel with the same serial number and suffix, in exactly the same font as the frame, as is the case here? And done it this way several years after initial production?

Also, would there have been halos around the barrel serial number and suffix on a replacement barrel, as is also the case here?
I would appreciate comments on these points. Either way, it does not detract from the interest or desirability of the pistol.

[Don M]

Doug, I go along with it probably being a replacement. There would be no halos on the barrel serial number and suffix if it was an original. As for the serial number matching that of the frame, that would be a common practice. Also, there were only a few different die fonts used over the span of Luger production so it doesn't seem odd that an armorer would match the frame font.

[cirelaw]

Pardon my ignorence> What is the issue surrounding mine and other police lugers. Im great at Law but not so much Lugerism!

[Jan C Still]

Dwight
I agree with you, the type 2 (Mid Nazi Era) Test proof (1936-1939) on the right receiver and barrel strongly indicates that the barrel of this Luger was replaced in the 1936-1939 time span. Another 29 DWM with the same Mid test proof is shown on page 153 Weimar Lugers (sn 4335u). The 1929 DWM Lugers display several different test proofs on the right receiver.
Jan
Below are a few additional links to the ever interesting and sometimes complex 29 DWM Lugers.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?7047-POLICE-29-DWM-SN-3541t-RIG&highlight=1929+DWM
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...652#post163652

[Don M]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Pardon my ignorence> What is the issue surrounding mine and other police lugers. Im great at Law but not so much Lugerism!

In this thread, there are three issues:

1. Are all of the blank toggle 29 DWMs leftovers from the canceled contract for Lugers for the Riff tribe in Morocco? This does not apply to your pistol since yours has a DWM logo on the toggle.

2. Did DWM (BKIW) manufacture any 9-mm Lugers after 1921?

3. Is the barrel on alanint's Luger a replacement? Your pistol appears to have its original barrel.

Your familiarity with circumstantial evidence should make you feel right at home in this.

[cirelaw]

Who knew years ago in a Gun show in West Palm I was offered this gun for $800 including a ratty incorrect velvet lined holster.One of our clan offered this way perfect holster a takedown tool #28 'tool cool'. I finally had all the pieces but for Donalds' book I might have traded it long ago! Also Jan's input a the 'Weimer Bible',You both opened a new chapter in luger treasure hunting! Thank You Both, Eric Esq!

[Jan C Still]

Cirelaw
Don said above: "3. Is the barrel on alanint's Luger a replacement? Your pistol appears to have its original barrel."


i agree with Don, your Luger bears only the E/WaA66 acceptance stamp and the C/N and has no indication of later replacement.
Jan

[cirelaw]

Thanks Jan! Lugers usually make sence. The same is not always the same for the scrivners and recorders! "Eric" aka 'Cirelaw'

[Jamka]

Gents,

Please excuse me for being almost absent on the forums; since the beginning of this year I was called back into the family wine bussiness. (Writing and testing Cobol computer programs).

One of the collectors drew my attention to this thread. I like to explain what we know from the documents that came in "the August Weiss Files", and which I used in the book "The Mauser Parabellum 1930 - 1946".

1. Document 65 (written bij august Weiss in 1960)
"Parabellum pistols for Police normally are 9mm. After the First World War, we (DWM) were not allowed by the Entnte to deliver 9mm pistols. In order to keep at east a small part of the large DWM alive, we were already happy to be allowed to deliver 100 pistols a day in the caliber 7.65 for the Police. Barrel lengths of 100mm and longer were also forbidden, so we reduced the barrels to 96 and 98mm. The Police later changed their barrels and also the recoil- and magazine spring; so they had their 9mm pistols". (page 339).

2. Document 26 (1972).
"In DWM Berlin Wittenau after WWI (around 1927) we made a few thousand Parabellum pistols having no DWM marking, destined for the so called Riff tribe in Morocco. These could not be delivered as DWM CEO Baron von Gantard and/or the government thought this was too risky. These pistols were later taken over by the Police in Berlin". (page 340).

3. I have in my collection a Police pistol (sear safety) having a crossed out "7.65" marking on the chamber. It has a 9mm barrel, nicely numbered and witness marked, als well as the stong 9mm recoil spring.

I hope this helps.

[Don M]

The key hangup to concluding that all of the blank toggle 29 DWMs were originally manufactured for export to the Riff Tribe is the apparent inconsistency between August Weiss' reference to a "paar Tausend" which can be understood as either a "few thousand" or a "couple of thousand" and the evidence that approximately 15,000 blank toggle Lugers were produced by DWM/BKIW in the late 1920s. Dwight, some years ago you felt the Riff contract was for 2,500 pistols which is consistent with Weiss' recollection (http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=4937). Have you found new information?

[cirelaw]

Im posting 2 pages whose tables fall right in my originals, Holster 'L.M.28. Luger L.Ka.124!

[Jamka]

Don,

There is no new evidence that might explain the difference between the "a couple of thousand" mentioned by August Weiss, and the number of 15,000 (Police) Luger pistols that was calculated based upon the reported pistols having a blank toggle in the s, t, and u block (1928-1929).

There is one new theory, however. After the control committee of the Allies left Germany (early 1927), DWM started to produce pistols having a 9mm barrel for the Dutch East Indies Army, and also for the Dutch Navy. In view of the fact that the Police took over the "couple of thousand" pistols remaining from the cancelled Riff contract, it might have been seducing opportunity to add many more pistols, and fit them with a 9mm barrel. The blank toggle would help to conceal this operation. The Treaty of Versailles Regulations were still in force.
Well - this is just a theory - but it might explain also why most of the 9mm barrels seem to have been originally mounted in the DWM factory.

Next month I will be in Germany again, looking for more evidence.

[cirelaw]

God Speed!

[Don M]

Joop, the problem I have with believing that DMW/BKIW was being "sneaky" in 1928-29 with blank toggles is that 9-mm police pistols having DWM toggles such as Eric's are mixed in the same serial number ranges. It's hard for me to believe they thought they would be fooling anybody.

The logic of having blank toggles on the Riff guns makes more sense, particularly if they intended to use a separate serial numbering scheme that didn't fit in with DWM's normal scheme. As Dwight noted in his 2004 posting, Kenyon (Lugers at Random, p. 238) claimed that the Riff pistols were re-serialed and that the numbers are slightly larger in size. I have never tried to investigate this but, if true, it may be a way of identifying these pistols.

[cirelaw]

Is my little luger a freek?