Police Luger Unit Mark

alanint · 06-14-2012, 01:30 PM

I was just shown a nice police Luger with the following Unit Mark;
L.Ar.185.

This appears to be a Wiemar era commercial Luger. The only marks on the gun are the following;
Proof: Eagle, Wa, Eagle. Eagle Proof on Barrel
Serial number is 3313 u on frame and barrel. "13" on last toggle back. Toggle axle marked "13". No nitro proof, no manufacturer on toggle, no chamber marks. Matching wood bottom Mag 3313 (no u) and number 1

Sear safety present, magazine safety removed. Wood grips look correct, period but no marks inside
Finish is original, (nice halos on barrel and unit marks) with only typical holster wear and some additional wear on the sideplate. Straw is strong on ejector, takedown and trigger, less so on safety but all appear original.

Initially I need an answer to the unit mark. This gun will be for sale but I am looking for an honest valuation as soon as I get photos up.
Thanks, gents!

alanint · 06-14-2012, 02:37 PM

More Pics...

alanint · 06-14-2012, 02:41 PM

And last, a curious Colt style blued and numbered axle pin.

Don M · 06-14-2012, 06:19 PM

Landjägerei Arnsberg.

alanint · 06-14-2012, 06:35 PM

Thanks, Don!
Rare? Desirable?

Does the gun look all correct in your opinion?

This belongs to a friend who may be selling.

SteveM · 06-14-2012, 06:37 PM

I like the 29 DWM's, I have one that is 1100 later than yours without gripstrap markings. It is both commercial and military marked.

SteveM

BogeyB · 06-14-2012, 09:55 PM

Doug,

I have one 110 earlier than yours. Alas, no matching mag. Nice gun!

Mike

Don M · 06-15-2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Thanks, Don!
Rare? Desirable?

Does the gun look all correct in your opinion?

This belongs to a friend who may be selling.

It looks good to me, especially with the matching mag. While I wouldn't call it rare, it is desirable (to me, at least --- I own one). See pp. 198-8 of HWIS for other examples.

cirelaw · 06-15-2012, 09:55 AM

I wanted to submit mine for comparision..

Ron Smith · 06-15-2012, 11:37 AM

Called a "Sneak" in marketing / collector parlance. A 1929 BKIW ( transition from DWM to Mauser) found in s, t, and u serial suffix with WaA66 proof. They are found with both, blank toggles, and DWM toggles.

The term "Sneak" was coined as a marketing ploy to add mystique. Supposedly produced without a date to keep the Allied Commission from knowing that Luger production had started again.
The current general consensus is that they were simply assembled from parts in inventory, and no date was thought necessary.

While not rare or scarce, but not extremely common, and desirable to unit mark collectors. I've seen them priced from $1400 to $2000+ based on condition, and scarcity of the Landjägerei unit mark district.

Ron

cirelaw · 06-15-2012, 01:39 PM

Thank You Ron. That make sence!

alanint · 06-15-2012, 08:02 PM

Thank you, Ron. It will be sold and I needed a fair market value for the owner.

Where would you put this example within that range? I have no dog in the fight, just trying to help an old vet.

cirelaw · 06-15-2012, 08:50 PM

Your matching mag it proved this was probobly own by a Police Officer.The one I have was not as lucky. Instead you can make out an owner very light name. What history. Their values can only increase. Donald Maus and His sources has done so much to increase the collectablity of each piece yet often bypassed. Once 'Lugers At Random appeared a whole market appeared. Collectors feel more confortable with a Policeman then a nazi brand. Keep it. Add a police holster and your golden. Eric, Esq

Ron Smith · 06-15-2012, 09:35 PM

Doug,

I sold one in very similar condition, without matching mag 2 or 3 years ago for $1795.00.

Ron

alanint · 06-16-2012, 12:58 AM

Thank you, Ron!!

Ron Smith · 06-16-2012, 09:31 AM

You're welcome Doug...

Dwight Gruber · 06-17-2012, 07:59 PM

Current collector designation is 29DWM. New commercial production made in 1929. In 1928 DWM accepted a contract to deliver a substantial number of pistols to the Riff tribe in Morocco. The Versailles treaty forbad the ecport of military wepons, so DWM assembled pistols destined for the Riff without a center toggle logo to disguise their origin.

The contract was neer delivered, and most of this production was obtained by the German police. They are found variously with commercial c/N proofs, commercial proofs with WaA66 Wafenamt acceptance stamps, and wth full Waffenamt acceptance and proof stamps but no c/N as with this example. This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938.

--Dwight

cirelaw · 06-17-2012, 08:28 PM

Were they on all police guns?

Jan C Still · 06-17-2012, 09:15 PM

Dwight
What is the basis of your statement:
"This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938."

I must of missed the documentation that the 29 DWM was first manufactured (1929/early 1930) in .30 cal. and this barrel later changed out for a 9mm barrel. If this is correct some portion of the German police must have armed with .30 caliber Lugers for a few years.
Jan

alanint · 06-17-2012, 09:38 PM

I'm no expert, (and the witness mark on this example is a tick off), But would they have installed a new barrel with the same serial number and suffix, in exactly the same font as the frame, as is the case here? And done it all those years after initial production?

Also, would there have been halos around the barrel serial number and suffix on a replacement barrel, as is also the case here?

06-14-2012, 01:30 PM	#1
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Police Luger Unit Mark I was just shown a nice police Luger with the following Unit Mark; L.Ar.185. This appears to be a Wiemar era commercial Luger. The only marks on the gun are the following; Proof: Eagle, Wa, Eagle. Eagle Proof on Barrel Serial number is 3313 u on frame and barrel. "13" on last toggle back. Toggle axle marked "13". No nitro proof, no manufacturer on toggle, no chamber marks. Matching wood bottom Mag 3313 (no u) and number 1 Sear safety present, magazine safety removed. Wood grips look correct, period but no marks inside Finish is original, (nice halos on barrel and unit marks) with only typical holster wear and some additional wear on the sideplate. Straw is strong on ejector, takedown and trigger, less so on safety but all appear original. Initially I need an answer to the unit mark. This gun will be for sale but I am looking for an honest valuation as soon as I get photos up. Thanks, gents! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by alanint; 06-14-2012 at 02:42 PM.

06-14-2012, 02:37 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	More Pics... Attached Thumbnails

06-14-2012, 02:41 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	And last, a curious Colt style blued and numbered axle pin. Attached Thumbnails

06-14-2012, 06:19 PM	#4
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Landjägerei Arnsberg. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

06-14-2012, 09:55 PM	#7
BogeyB Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mc Donough, GA. Posts: 420 Thanks: 0 Thanked 222 Times in 96 Posts	Doug, I have one 110 earlier than yours. Alas, no matching mag. Nice gun! Mike __________________ MAGA Always!! NRA Benifactor, GCA

06-14-2012, 06:35 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Thanks, Don! Rare? Desirable? Does the gun look all correct in your opinion? This belongs to a friend who may be selling.

06-14-2012, 06:37 PM	#6
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	I like the 29 DWM's, I have one that is 1100 later than yours without gripstrap markings. It is both commercial and military marked. SteveM

06-15-2012, 09:55 AM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Is my police luger related I wanted to submit mine for comparision.. Attached Thumbnails

06-15-2012, 11:37 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Called a "Sneak" in marketing / collector parlance. A 1929 BKIW ( transition from DWM to Mauser) found in s, t, and u serial suffix with WaA66 proof. They are found with both, blank toggles, and DWM toggles. The term "Sneak" was coined as a marketing ploy to add mystique. Supposedly produced without a date to keep the Allied Commission from knowing that Luger production had started again. The current general consensus is that they were simply assembled from parts in inventory, and no date was thought necessary. While not rare or scarce, but not extremely common, and desirable to unit mark collectors. I've seen them priced from $1400 to $2000+ based on condition, and scarcity of the Landjägerei unit mark district. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-15-2012, 01:39 PM	#11
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank You Ron. That make sence!

06-15-2012, 08:02 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Thank you, Ron. It will be sold and I needed a fair market value for the owner. Where would you put this example within that range? I have no dog in the fight, just trying to help an old vet.

06-15-2012, 08:50 PM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	You have a great opportunity Your matching mag it proved this was probobly own by a Police Officer.The one I have was not as lucky. Instead you can make out an owner very light name. What history. Their values can only increase. Donald Maus and His sources has done so much to increase the collectablity of each piece yet often bypassed. Once 'Lugers At Random appeared a whole market appeared. Collectors feel more confortable with a Policeman then a nazi brand. Keep it. Add a police holster and your golden. Eric, Esq Attached Thumbnails

06-15-2012, 09:35 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Doug, I sold one in very similar condition, without matching mag 2 or 3 years ago for $1795.00. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-16-2012, 12:58 AM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Thank you, Ron!!

06-16-2012, 09:31 AM	#16
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	You're welcome Doug... __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-17-2012, 07:59 PM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Current collector designation is 29DWM. New commercial production made in 1929. In 1928 DWM accepted a contract to deliver a substantial number of pistols to the Riff tribe in Morocco. The Versailles treaty forbad the ecport of military wepons, so DWM assembled pistols destined for the Riff without a center toggle logo to disguise their origin. The contract was neer delivered, and most of this production was obtained by the German police. They are found variously with commercial c/N proofs, commercial proofs with WaA66 Wafenamt acceptance stamps, and wth full Waffenamt acceptance and proof stamps but no c/N as with this example. This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938. --Dwight

06-17-2012, 08:28 PM	#18
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I Took A Picture of the cute little proof Were they on all police guns? Attached Thumbnails

06-17-2012, 09:15 PM	#19
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Dwight What is the basis of your statement: "This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938." I must of missed the documentation that the 29 DWM was first manufactured (1929/early 1930) in .30 cal. and this barrel later changed out for a 9mm barrel. If this is correct some portion of the German police must have armed with .30 caliber Lugers for a few years. Jan

06-17-2012, 09:38 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I'm no expert, (and the witness mark on this example is a tick off), But would they have installed a new barrel with the same serial number and suffix, in exactly the same font as the frame, as is the case here? And done it all those years after initial production? Also, would there have been halos around the barrel serial number and suffix on a replacement barrel, as is also the case here?