Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag...

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

I fully believe that the flower was added after the Luger left the factory. The best explanation I've seen, is that the Japanese captured them and the flower was added by them. That still makes them an interesting historical addition to the Luger. Anyone attempted to figure out what the characters on the barrel mean???

[Ron Wood]

There is absolutely no record of any "contract" Lugers being produced for Japan, so the addition of the marking some time after it was produced can be considered a dead certainty. John Sabato's and others observations that the markings are post factory are, in my opinion, very valid. Ed Tinker's reference to the chrysanthemum being a very restricted marking is an opinion that is held by advanced Japanese militaria collectors, some even going so far as to indicate that it would be a punishable offense if performed in Japan. But, that doesn't mean that it couldn't have had official "imperial" authorization and records have not survived. It is just a big unknown. As to my personal opinion, I believe I will just remain mum on the issue.

[Silvereagle29]

If we were all to review Fred Datigs' book and search the pages on early Mauser contracts, we might find that all of the Mauser contract information somehow died afterÃ?Â*1939. If anybody has any records of post 1939 Luger contracts that are not obvious, Please help There is nobody more interested in this information than me. I have a copy of a US Military document published in 1946 by the U.S. Army. According to this document, truck loads of Mauser records left Oberndorf for France in early 1946. Much of our WW-11 history would lead us to believe the "Russians" ravaged and burned the factory at Oberndorf? I wish we had the answers. Maybe our friends in France can find these warehouse where all these old records are stored.

[Vlim]

Hi,

Some comments:
1. Disappearance of records is not strange. A contact in Holland reported that luger-related production info for magazines were destroyed as late as the early nineties. For everybody except collectors and historians, records are wasting valuable office and storage space and therefore they are destroyed regularly.

2. If there are japanese captured lugers, they certainly didn't capture them from the German army I will find a Dutch KNIL luger an acceptable candidate for Japanese capture (and possible added engravings), because the Dutch were overrun in what is now Indonesia and Thailand in 1942.

3. The japanese had quite extensive contacts with the Germans but chose to produce their own version (the Nambu). 'presentation' or 'gift' or 'souvenir' lugers popping up with Japanese markings sound acceptable.

[drbuster]

Dear Pete, I admire your courage by bringing up issues that are controversial to help educate us on this Forum. How else would we learn? Witness your posts previously about the 45 luger. Damn the "hate mail", keep up the good work!!!

[Edward Tinker]

I agree with Gerben that presentation pieces are always possible, or even self bought pistols, as that occured.

But, I would think that those that were captured (possibly 4,000 pieces, including some FN's and other pistols, and rifles), that these would be the most likely canidates. It would be interesting to see if the serial numbers are within acceptable ones bought by the Dutch? You may notice that neither of the guns pictured above are 1906 models, and the majority were of the grip safety models.

Ed

[Edward Tinker]

Here are some comments on "Fair Use" for educational purposes for copyrights:

Sec. 107. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

So using portions of text or pictures is acceptable, but we must remember to give credit to whomever the writer(s) is, it can not be large copied portions, but small excerpts is legally acceptable.

Ed

[Roadkill]

I really don't know much about this but that hasn't stopped me yet. What I see as interesting is that the two examples shown are both in the same photo "positioning", both are 1940 42s, black & white photo, and that the mum is on the same place as was placed on a Imperial rifle. Never have seen one ground off, and I don't think I have ever seen one on a Nambu. The chamber area would not be an easy place to place the mum. If not done at an arms factory, wouldn't it be easier to mark on a flat surface? Why would they be marked and not Nambus (if they weren't) which were made for ossifers in an era in which the weapon and the soldier were servants of the Sun God? John S, can you do some of your super secret computer stuff and look at the stampings for halos?

rk

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Placing the mum above the chamber was a Japanese requirement
for military weapons. When the war ended the officials ordered
the mum removed due to the significance of the mum. Some were
removed some were not. I've seen rifles where it looked as if
someone tried to scratch it off, and some looked as if it was
filed away...

[Heydrich]

Leaving the realms of speculation, the Japanese didn’t even place their sacred chrysanthemum on guns they made in occupied factories they controlled, or stamp the Mum on the tens of thousands of VZ-24 and Standard Modell rifles they captured from the Chinese. During the period from 1933 to 1945, the Japanese ran the Mukden arsenal in Manchuria, were they manufactured a very strange rifle that was used by their own forces extensively. There is no known example of this type of rifle that has the Mum on it. The two examples I see in Ball’s book have a strange crest with two circles and a bull’s-eye in it instead of the Mum.

I don’t know the author, nor have I seen the book in question. But one thing I can say about human nature is that it’s almost impossible to keep a good secret if it’s true. Sort of like Ulysses mocking and taunting the blinded Cyclops Polyphemus that he had escaped him, as he rowed back to his ship with his Greek companions.

[Silvereagle29]

How come Robert Weiss has no comments on this subject.

[Big Norm]

I have gone thru a past issues of AutoMag and have found another article by Mr. Francis C.Allan "In Search of the Illusive Japanese Luger", pages 80 thru 84, July 2002. He supplies four different illustrations of counterfeit Japanese Lugers. His article is well documented and written. He thanks such gun luminaries as Sam Costanzo, Keith Cumberland, Joseph P. Koss, Robert Hiller, Linn Lockwood, Jerry L. Price and Ralph E Shattuck for providing information for his article. He states that Sam Costanzo did a lot of traveling in search of these Lugers. Even to the extent of traveling to Europe just to examine two guns. He proved that both guns were counterfeit. In summation, Mr. Allan states that "no 'Japanese Model' of the Luger ever existed...no exception to this fact.".

The article gave Mr. Allens address and e-mail. But after hearing that a man of Pete Ebbinks quality got some hate mail, I am reluctant to post it. While Mr. Mike Jones has a legitimate complaint, I feel that, otherwise, this entire discussion is perfectly legitimate and a good learning experience for all Lugerheads. Thats what this forum is all about. Thanks Pete for the discussion.
Big Norm

[Mike Jones]

Found the letter I was looking for concerning the Japanese Luger on pages 208 & 209 of Luger Variations. As of August 19, 2002 it is in Nashville Tenn. I will contact the gentleman that owns it and see if I can get color photos and post them here.

I sincerly hope Frank Allen and his mystery guest (which I feel is one of two people) will not accuse me of being 2nd generation photo doctor.

Regards,
Mike

[Edward Tinker]

Mike, although I would get hot if someone wrote about my Dad, brother, etc., this is an interesting thread, and I am curious as to the outcome or at least further information coming out.
My gut feeling is that the Mum's on Japanese Lugers are not real, I also don't have any doubt that owners of these obtained them that way and Harry Jones was simply documenting what he was given and saw. Although possible, I find it improbable that Mr. Jones would fake photos for his book.
It would be interesting to see What Mr. Allan has to say about this, as he used to be a member of this forum? If it is written up in the NAPCA AutoMag newsletter, then this would be the same type of public forum?

Ed

[Big Norm]

While glancing through Jan Stills "Third Reich Lugers" book, I found Jans diplomatic discussion of the Japanese Luger. See page 74.
Big Norm

__________________
You can call mother 'mum' but don't ever call father 'dud'

[ejc]

not to change the subject,but how do you become a member of this NAPCA and get this newsletter.
oh yea is it worthwhile to join is there good info there?

[Edward Tinker]

Put NAPCA in a search engine such as www.google.com and it will come up like this:

http://www.napca.net/

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Ejc,

I joined NAPCA last year for the 1st. time and have looked forward to receiving my AutoMag newsletter each month. As I recall, you need an existing member to "host" or "sponsor" your membership application...

There is always stuff about lugers in AutoMag but also more info. on other automatic pistols. Through AutoMag, I have developed an appreciation for Walther Olympia pistols and even Bergmann Bayard pistols...both now on my "shopping list"...

There are a lot of older, established collectors that participate in AutoMag and it is obvious that many NAPCA members may not be Internet connected.

The folks that run NAPCA and issue AutoMag have been struggling with how to bring AutoMag onto the Web and not loose their core of long time members that might not have PC's. The pros & cons of this issue/discussion have been going on in "dialogues" in AutoMag for awhile...

I am not sure how Mr. Tom Knox, who runs NAPCA, will eventually resolve this and where AutoMag will go in the future.

In the meantime, web-based discussion boards such as the Luger Forum, Jan Still's new pistol board, and others are seemingly forging ahead with the new technology...but I hope some collectors are not left out...

Web-based discussion boards are great for that "instant" response, but I also find myself enjoying reading discussions in AutoMag that might take a few months to unfold. Reminds me of a few years back when you actually wrote letters (i.e. paper & pen) to your friends and then waited at the mail box for their replies a few weeks later.

I suspect the Japanese luger issue that Mr. Frank Allan started on AutoMag will take a few more months to develop, so more opinions can be "heard"...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[ejc]

Thanks
I sent them a email on how to get more info.If they will let me I will join.
Ed

[Aaron]

I have no explanation to forward on the subject of mums on Lugers, nor do I even have a theory. However, it seems to me that anyone skilled and talented enough to place these markings on a Luger had a world of possibilities if he desired to create a fake collector piece. Why pick the mum and not the Italian R.E. (Reggio Ejercito)? Or how about the French Fleur d'Lis, And why did he mark more than one Luger?