Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag...

[Pete Ebbink]

Interesting Japanese luger story was written about in this month's NAPCA AutoMag newsletter. AutoMag is copyrighted; so I will try to paraphrase the article written by a Mr. Frank Allan (for folks here that may not subscribe...) :

Mr. Allan apparently has written a previous article about Japanese lugers with their "chrysanthemum" chamber markings. I gather his article was to forewarn folks of the fakery of such Japanese lugers.

Mr. Allan, in the current AutoMag article, reports receiving a letter from a writer who many years earlier met Harry E. Jones at a California gun show. This fellow asked Jones if he did, indeed, fake, the photo of the Japanese luger in the Jones book, Luger Variations, on pages 208-209.

This fellow reports that Jones said "yes" he did and that it took sometime for him to get the superimposed negatives right for the photo in the book. The flower photo coming from a a rifle with the MUM flower.

This fellow then went on to ask Jones how long after the Jones book coming out, did fake Japanese lugers start showing up. Jones is reported as replying "about six months".

So, here are my questions :

1. Is this story true ? Is it well known that Jones did "doctor up" this photo to create a Japanese luger ?

2. The photo credits in the Jones book on pages 208-209 is given to a collector named Mr. Russ Storer. Was there, then, not a real Mr. Storer ? Or was Mr. Storer surprised to see his "enhanced" luger show up as a Japanese luger in the book ? Or did both Mr. Jones and Mr. Storer just play a trick on the luger collecting community, as a practical joke ?

3. Finally, are there such things as authentic Japanse lugers that do have the MUM chamber crest ?

Sam Costanzo in his book, "World Of Lugers - Proofmarks" on page 197 written in 1977 states "Watch for fakes, only 2 originals have been authenticated...". Are these 2 lugers still thought to be real Japanese lugers, i.e. captured Dutch lugers that had a chamber marking added by the Japanese ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Great questions Pete... I can't wait to hear the replies...

Pete... would it be possible for you to post a cropped photo of the alleged Japanese chamber marking from the Harry Jones book?

Maybe his son Mike Jones can comment on the Automag story? How about it Mike?

[Edward Tinker]

On the Japanese website of gunboards, this has been brought up also, for other guns, not Lugerâ??s, such as Garands, captured K98's etc. And the Japanese experts say no way was this an official thing done to captured weapons. Not saying it isn't possible, but the Mum was a sacred thing of the emperor and so it was selectively placed on weapons. Doesn't mean someone didn't have it done, but the majority of the time, it was after the war to enhance the piece. There were several thousand Lugerâ??s and other arms that were captured in the Dutch Indies and this is where it is believed they would have been marked, and a few rumors of Lugers bought as personal weapons.

All the articles I have read have stated this is probably all bogus, but it is unknown and I look forward to anything that comes out of this.

Ed

[Big Norm]

Articles regarding Japanese Lugers with the Mum on the chamber periodically pop up in the NAPCA AutoMag newsletter. The conclusion has always been that these guns are fake. Personally, I would never pay big bucks for one. I would apply a gun dealers credibility discount. But as an interesting shooter at a reduced price, I have a resounding maybe. But I would not go out of my way to buy one.
There are just too many other interesting Lugers that I would like to have.
Big Norm

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

When I was quite young in the early sixties, my Uncle talked about Japanese Lugers. My Uncle was of just the right age, that after entering
the Army and going through training he arrived in Europe just as the war in Europe ended. After a few weeks there, he was ordered to the Pacific.
He had made it to the Phillipines, while there, another GI offered him a pair of Lugers for some cigarettes. He described them as having flowers
over the chambers. He wished he had taken them, but cigarettes were valuable. I've thought about the story many times over the year, and wondered. Now with controversy over them, it makes me wonder even more about the Japanese Luger...

[Edward Tinker]

Johnny, that is one of those, I wish... And I would love to have a Luger with a mum on it

So somewhere in America is this GI saying, and I had two of these Lugers with flowers on them things and I traded both for some packs of cigs to some navy (or air corps) guy!

[Pete Ebbink]

John S.,

Will do...I am away from my library and scanner until Sunday night, but will post a scan of the Jones' photo, then...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Big Norm]

As luck would have it, I received my current copy of AutoMag just after Pete's original post. I have to agree with Pete that it is disgusting that a trusted author of a book would fake a picture of a Japanese Luger just to add one more page in a book. But I would still add a big "Gun Dealer Credibility Discount" to anyone trying to sell one of these things as original.
Big Norm

[Thor]

I have a copy of that book! Not only is the mum shown, but also it appears that there are three Japanese characters on the top of the barrel just ahead of the marking, perhaps they mean "Dont believe what you see" lol

[Pete Ebbink]

As promised; here is the photo of the "Japanese" luger in the H. Jones book, on pages 208-209 :



Per Mike Jones' suggestion, see page 209 text in Harry's book; there were no contract lugers for Japan.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Since the 1940 seems to occupy the space that is normally occupied by the date stamp on the chamber, I would have to speculate that this gun had the "mum" added at some date later than it's manufacturing date. I can't see where the factory would stamp something that large in combination with the date that close to the front of the receiver...it would seem from observing many chamber date stamps that they would have centered the stamps between the front of the receiver and the extractor notch...

just my

[Mike Jones]

Pete,

First of all you paraphrase Auto Mag because of copyright, What about the photo you posted?

It's funny how defamation of character can occur after someone has died.For Frank Allen to conclude from a letter from a writer of ANOTHER ALLEGED CONVERSATION With Harry that he superimposed a negative to create the Japanese Luger is TOTAL BULLS**T.

Then you imply Harry created Russ Storer to pass off a photo in a book. Russ was real,Had a large collection of guns and a family, wife Jeannette, daughter Anne and son Charley of Bellaire Texas. Maybe you can track them down and verify this.

As to this gun it is still around, the current owner ordered a copy of the book a couple of years ago.

Harry thought this was a interesting variation and included it in the book. If he thought any different he would not have. As he chose not to include a photo of a Spandau Luger.

Regards,
Mike Jones

[Alain]

Dear friends,

Please excuse my stupidity but I do not know how to upload pics

I have pics of a Japanese Luger.

Rgds,

Alain

[Ron Wood]

Alain,
If you email the pics to me, I can post them for you.
Ron

[Ron Wood]

Here are views of Alain's Japanese Luger.

[Alain]

Dear Ron,

Thanks a lot for posting these pics that I had a hard time uploading.

Unfortunately this Japanese Luger is not mine.
It was offered for sale at auction (Herman Historica) a couple of years back.

Will send the original text describing the article.

Rgds,

Alain

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Mike,

1. First off; I did not intend to defame your father's good name. He, Datig, and Kenyon are the pioneers in cataloguing and educating us luger "nuts". If you took offense, I sincerely apologize.

2. As to the photo from your Dad's 1975 version of his book; if a current copyright is still in place (after 28 years), please advise and I will be happy to delete the photo from the book in my 2nd. posting.

3. I assumed since Mr. Frank Allan's article was printed in the current AutoMag newsletter, there was some credibility to the "story". As I understand the NAPCA folks "screen" out mail, articles, and e-mails and decide what appears in the newsletter. I assumed, maybe erroneously, the AutoMag staff had determine the article was "worthy of printing"...

4. The reason I posted my paraphrased version was to let Luger Forum members, that do not subscribe to AutoMag, know about the article and this little "controversy". As a moderator on the Luger Forum, one role we have is to bring such info. to folks attention to hopefully stimulate more discussions and opinions.

5. Thanks for letting us know that Mr. Storer is indeed a real person. Assuming the Frank Allan article had/has some merit; I was merely speculating as to Mr. Storer's pistol and his roll in the story...

6. I will venture a bet that this "story" will continue to play out in AutoMag over the next few months. Might I assume you will write a rebuttal letter to Mr. Allan's article for submission to the AutoMag folks ? One might certainly ask Mr. Allan to identify the "writer" of the letter that is at the heart of this story about the photo in your father's book.

7. I would assume Mr. Storer might even be contacted (if he is not deceased) to shed some light on the Japanese luger...if this story is truely without merit, I would think it an easy matter to clear up and possibly secure a retraction in AutoMag...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Silvereagle29]

I made an attempt to post these comments a few days ago, unfortunately my comments failed to appear. I think they were lost in the "spell check". This time, I won't spell check this one. In my collection you will find a 1940 "flower" pistol, anyone is welcome to check it out any time your in my area. Certainly, it is not my intent to vote in favor of these pistols, but I do have a few comments. My pistol has a very small Japanese mark on the ball of the lower rear grip strap. This was pointed out to me by Mr. Don Forsythe of Lebonan, OR many years ago. This mark is not mentioned on other "flower" 1940 dates.????

Now for the Harry Jones issue. I knew Harry Jones many years ago. I was not a close friend, but knew him well enough to know that he was not a faker of Luger pistols. During my many years of collecting the German Luger, I have had many discussions with many knowledgeable collectors relating to the know fakers. Harry Jones was never mentioned in any of these discussions. I believe a couple of you people have "jumped to conclusions" and convicted a well know Luger collector of fraud without a nickels worth of pure evidence or justification!!! Don't be in such a hurry to judge without some real facts!! Think, AM is a discussion publication, not a documentation of printed facts.

If Harry Jones was ever asked such an immature question such as (DID YOU FAKE THIS PISTOL?), I believe he would have answered the question with a tail that would have impressed Fred Datig, Jan Still, Sam Costanzo or Charles kenyon. He was just sort of person. See the last issue of AM for a typical Harry Jones answer. I know of a few real fakers who would have presented a real "vet story", like directly from the Vet's wife, etc..If you believe that gun show story, maybe we can get a group together and buy a bridge to Hawaii..

Many years ago, I came upon a copy of a letter written by a US Diplomat stationed in Germany just after WW-11. The content of this letter indicated he had been presented a Luger of this type from a ranking German Diplomat. At that time it was his intention to bring this pistol back to the US. Was this letter advance advertizing for the fake "Mum" 1940 dates or the truth???
This letter remains in my files, let me see if I can find it.

Never have I been convinced my 1940 Japanese marked pistol was correct and I'm certainly not going to pass it off on some to some new Luger collector. However, I believe this approach to proving a pistol is a fake or real really is not a demonstration of sincere Luger collectors. Stinks?? I will always doubt (if this pistol is proved to be a fake) the "mum' 1940-42 was born in Torrance, CA.

Do hope my spelling was acceptable this time, don't want to see this one "fly away".
Good Luck and have fun collecting. Let's get on to a more interesting discussion.

Don Hallock
Novice Luger Collector

[John Sabato]

Good Morning all,

I would like say a few words in Pete's defense and to add that I don't think it was Pete's intention to disparage the memory or reputation of Harry Jones...

Although Pete was appointed one of the Lugerforum moderators because of his enthusiasm for the Swiss Model and high level of participation when the Lugerforum began this new incarnation this year, he is a relative newcomer to Lugers and collecting them and would have had no prior knowledge of Harry Jones reputation.

I have never heard a derogatory word about Mr. Jones before this thread started... and Pete was only bringing the forum's attention to the AM article where the innuendo regarding Mr. Jones began...

Don H... in your own words, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Think, AM is a discussion publication, not a documentation of printed facts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The lugerforum is exactly that, a medium for discussion, and not so much a documentation of historical fact... New folks have to learn somewhere, and this is a great place to learn because knowledgable folks who frequent here share their wisdom that was learned the hard way... How else would a newcomer learn about Harry Jones and his reputation except by being witness to printed conversations here in this forum, or by hearsay learned at a gunshow.

We must all learn to sift the wheat from the chaff... Hopefully learning from others keeps us from learning the hard way ourselves...

I am grateful for the responses from both Don Hallock and Mike Jones, who took the time to set all of us (especially the newcomers) straight on Harry Jones and this facet of Luger history...

I still find the discussion of the alleged Japanese Luger a legitimate topic for discussion.

We now have three examples known to the forum. The gun in Harry's book. The gun pictured in Alain's photograph, and the gun Don just said is in his collection. If more of the collectors who frequent this forum would take the time to chime in on this discussion with what they know or believe they know, and at the same time publish photos of the "mum" lugers here for comparison... perphaps we could all learn much more about this variation.

My speculation (and noted as such) that the Mum appears to have been added to the gun later than the time of manufacture because of the placement of the stamp compared to other variations is not completely without merit... and I would welcome other facts or speculation on this topic.

Perhaps if we can jointly research this area, we can come up with some facts from collectors who are Harry Jones peers, but who have not yet passed on, who can elighten the Luger enthusiasts about the origin of this really neat variation of Luger.

On another topic... the spell checker! I don't think that the implementation of spell check that is part of the forum software can deal with long posts (such as this one) It does work fine for posts that are only a couple of lines... It ain't perfect, but it is all we have

Thanks to all for contributing.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Don,

I do not think the AM article by Frank Allan and Mr. Who (?) indicated Harry actually was forging Japanese lugers. I think the allegation was that Harry may have "doctored up" a photo to create a new "variation".

If, and I say a big "if", the story is true; maybe Harry's intentions were honorable and he was just testing the luger community and the cottage industry of guys that tinker/doctor up lugers. Maybe Harry's intent was to "create" the impression of an authentic Japanese luger to confirm his suspicions that such lugers would start to appear in the market place where none had appeared before...

I regret even mentioning this AM article on the Luger Forum, at all. You should see the "hate mail" I am getting...

I will just wait for this thing to continue in AutoMag over the next few issues...

Good to hear from you and I appreciate your thoughtful posting on the Luger Forum...

Best regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />