Navy Toggle Question

[larry]

John
Thanks for the help. Sorry I took so long to get back with you but have been out of the US for awhile. Really like the new format. I am not a computer savy person and so I am struggling to learn the new process.
Thanks
larry

[Pete Ebbink]

After reading the exchange about small versus large pin flanges, I would like to ask a question :

Can such things as the size of the rear pin flange be so "black & white" ?

Is it possible, that in the frentic production schedule at DWM during 1916-1917 (during war years), regular Navy parts bins became empty and to keep production numbers up, the folks at DWM utilized other parts rather than not make their production quotas ?

I ask this question not to defend the luger in question or the seller.

I have been reading other Forum threads about serial number stamps on a trigger being stamped "upside" down, some military guns with commerical serial number stampings, and some parts "double stamped". Recently a Forum thread is discussing the size of the date stamp on 1916 versus 1917 Navyies, with folks citing examples of both and to the contrary. With these examples, the folks in the luger factory decided to pass the gun down the line.

I have a Swiss luger that is all "white" on its interior surfaces, except for the front well where the locking bolt runs through. All the Swiss books say this front well should be in the white as well. I surmise the factory worker that was brushing the rust blue solution on maybe let some chemical drip into this front well. Certainly not factory spec's, but the luger was not rejected and was pass down the line, anyways.

Is it possible in 1917, during the dire years of WWI and the German war machine screaming for lugers, that some Navies were made with the "wrong" type of rear pin flange size ?

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, what you say is alway "possible" but I doubt it. The Navy probably would have rejected a delivery that did not meet all of its specifications. I've seen one example of a standard PO8 with no Naval proofs, that was set up for the large rimmed axel pin. This one probably would have been accepted by the Army. Tom H.

[Jan C Still]

Pete,
You state that the Swiss Navy Luger thread was deleted/censored by you as moderator because â??I do not want the forum to be used to possible degrade the buyers guns value and likewise to impune the sellers reputation.â?� John S. and John D. commended your action. This policy favors the seller and I could not disagree more.

Fakes/replicas are a serious business to most collectors. Private E- mails between long time collectors and new collectors concerning the 1916-1917 dated Navy Lugers have been circulating. They leave no question that these Lugers are replicas. It is not a matter of speculation or a gray area. It is apparent that large numbers of these fake Navy Lugers were made.

Experienced collectors establish that the correct 1916-1917 dated Navy Lugers have the large flange pin with their postings on this thread. Apparently you give no credit to the long time collectors that posted on this thread and were not on the routing list for these private E-Mails. If you gave credit to long time collectors or were on the routing list, perhaps you would not be excusing these fake Lugers with wild speculation about â??the German war machine screaming for lugersâ?� or â??frenetic productionâ?� or â??regular Navy parts bins being emptyâ?�.

Private E-Mails that trash a dealer or a luger do a disservice to both the dealer and Forum members. It is not fair to the dealer because he has no opportunity to defend himself and its unfair to the rest of the members because they will not know about the bad dealers or the bad Lugers.

Its my opinion that private E-Mails (concerning bad dealers and faked Lugers) should eventually be made public to benefit all the Forum members.
Jan C. Still

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Jan,

I was not "privy" to the private e-mails that you mentioned that circulated, off-Forum, about the Navy rear axle pin flange size; so I certainly do not know what the other "experts" had to say.

The only replies that I recall on the Forum expressed by Johnny Peppers, Tom Heller, and Bill Munis confirmed large flanges should only be seen on 1916-1917 Navies. I certainly did not mean to "dismiss" their opinions with my follow-up posting.

I also know the original poster received the info. (both on-Forum and off-Forum) he was asking to help make a buy/keep decision regarding the luger in question.

In my most recent posting I was just trying to ask if it were possible, just possible if some small flanged 1917 Navies got out ?

With my manfuacturing engineering background in the world of real-time computer aided manufacturing (CAM) techniques in factory settings in 2002 with literally hundreds of vendors and company employees trying to make "just in time" manufacturing work; I have a keen appreciation for those typical SNAFU's showing up and leaving all on the factory floor total stumped when something that is supposed to be there, isn't. Usually on those days, you use what is at hand (typically upgraded parts) to get the order out.

My question was just surmising if a factory in a country at war with most of the European continent over 80 years ago (without the use of CAM manufacturing controls) might have had those days on their factory floor from time to time.

Tom Heller's reply, that he has seen a P-08 with no Navy proofs but with the large "Navy" axle pin, may lend support to my speculation that such days at DWM may have occured on some rare occassion...

Respectfully,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, I don't rule out the possibility that the PO8 that I say with the large flange rear axel, might have been a Weimar of a 1916 or 1917 Navy (don't still have this pistol). Also, the large flange pin usage started with the M1908 Navy, not the P04/14. Tom H.

[bradsimpson]

Jan,
You are right about the many fake Navy Lugers out there. They are made from donor 1920 Commercial Lugers because of the same serial number style & placement. Navy barrels & rear toggles were manufactured recently to put on 20 Commercials (which are relatively cheap & easy to find in nice condition.) Then Navy proofs are added to the left side of the receiver, a chamber date is added (usually 1916), a fake Navy mag is added, etc.

I can assure you that all of the top dealers know about these guns because they have been offered to us in quantity by the maker at very tempting wholesale prices. And they look nicer than most real Navy Lugers, because real ones are usually pitted from sea spray.

This forum has picked up on the easiest way to identify these guns, look at the flange on the rear toggle pin. The fake Navy Lugers still have the smaller flanged pin that fits into the smaller flanged receiver from the donated 1920 Commercial. Also look for the recently added chamber date & Navy proofs. And the rear sight adjustment button is fire blued with very sharp serrations.

Many of these guns have ended up in the hands of novice collectors (I see the damage done on a regular basis.) I know several people who have stopped collecting after getting stung. They were only sold by a few dealers, but they sold a lot of them. It would not look right for me as a dealer to name names. But I beleive the collectors on this forum have the right to expose the people who have knowingly tried to take advantage of them.

The bad guys rely on the good guys keeping quiet.

[Luke]

Good post, Brad.

Only down side, all of these bogus Navys will now be reworked to install a large flange rear toggle pin. [img]frown.gif[/img]
Luke

[John Sabato]

It is too bad that the folks who manufactured these bogus parts for installation on 1920 commercial guns couldn't just stick to manufacturing the parts for a reasonable price instead of using deceptive practices to fleece unsuspecting newcomers...

I would love to have a Navy "type" rear toggle and a 6 inch barrel with the correct front sight base just so that I could create a "shooter" class Navy Luger at a price that wouldn't empty my retirement fund and I wouldn't even care if both the barrel and rear sight/toggle parts were neatly and permanently stamped "Made In The USA"

Having spent two years in manufacturing engineering, I think it is a crying shame to have spent the time and effort necessary to engineer and set up a production line to produce so few parts when they could have done the Luger shooters of world a real service and made a "reasonable" profit doing it.

I can only hope that AIMCO will take this hint and produce both a Navy and an Artillery model Luger in their product line including the original type rear sights... If they make them out of stainless steel, there is no way that their parts could turn up on a forgery of an original Navy...

Just my $0.02

[bradsimpson]

John,
You are absolutely right. For the amount of time & effort it takes to make these guns, the guy could be making something else and earning honest money.

Some people would rather be taking advantage of someone. I have never understood this psychology. [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Edward Tinker]

I'm sure we all have lots of stories, but it is amazing to me the amount of work people do, to do something illegal and if they spent half their time and energy into legal pursuits, they'd be well off! [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Luke]

As Brad points out, most dealers will not handle these bogus Navy Lugers . . . . . but a few do.