Navy Toggle Question

Dan Clemons · 06-05-2002, 05:57 PM

When was the larger flange on the rear toggle pin used? Do you ever see circumstances where the standard pin was used in 1916?

Thanks,

Dan

Lugerdoc · 06-05-2002, 07:25 PM

Dan, The large rimmed rear toggle axel was used on Naval Lugers from 1908 on. Tom H.

Luke · 06-05-2002, 08:01 PM

Dan,

I don't have an answer to that question, but I am still curious about a related question I posted earlier on the same subject.

What was the reason for the larger flange on the Navy Lugers? Could it have served the same purpose as the Mauser bump on later Lugers?

Since the larger flange was not common to any of the other WW-I DWM Lugers, the inclusion of this part in the Navy version was an added-cost item, a fact which would lead one to suspect that the German Navy actually included the larger flange in their specification to DWM.

How about it Navy Collectors, does anyone know the history of this?

I LOVE IT HERE ! ! ! !

MauserLugers · 06-06-2002, 02:05 AM

Hi Dan,
I'm not a big Navy collector, but I think the bigger headed rear connecting pins started in 1916 and were ONLY used on the 1916 and 1917 dated models. You should never see a 1916 or 1917 Navy with a small, or normal size pin. Take care -- Bill Munis

Luke · 06-06-2002, 08:21 AM

Dan,

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know the answer to this question, but I have another data point.

In a discussion with a 30+ year dealer yesterday, I asked the same question. He gave me the same answer that (MauserLugers) Bill Munis provided above.

larry · 06-06-2002, 06:23 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers:
<strong>Hi Dan,
I'm not a big Navy collector, but I think the bigger headed rear connecting pins started in 1916 and were ONLY used on the 1916 and 1917 dated models. You should never see a 1916 or 1917 Navy with a small, or normal size pin. Take care -- Bill Munis</strong><hr></blockquote>

larry · 06-06-2002, 06:30 PM

Bill
I only have one Navy, a 1908, but it has a larger flange. Sorry about the duplicate of your post, I am going through a learning curve with the new format.
larry

John Sabato · 06-06-2002, 08:49 PM

Hey Larry,

This new forum has a great new feature! You are allowed to edit your own postings. If you make a mistake, just click on the icon with the pencil and paper above the post with the mistake and it will put you in edit mode.

Deleting posts can only be done by one of the forum moderators... Posts will generally not be deleted unless they violate the terms of service or Forum Decorum rules.

I will let you edit your second post for the practice...

This new forum software is head and shoulders above what we were using...

best to you...

John Sabato · 06-06-2002, 08:51 PM

Luke, I have always believed that the large flange Navy Lugers were designed this way to serve the same purpose as the Mauser Bump on the upper receiver... to keep the axle from slipping out when in the most extreme position.

I came to this conclusion based on examination of the design engineering and not from any published data...

just my $0.02

MauserLugers · 06-06-2002, 10:49 PM

Hi,
Did some checking and Tom Heller was correct. The 1906's have the small headed rear connecting pins and the 1908, 1916, and 1917's all have the larger headed rear connecting pins. You can find a small pin in the 1908's or 1914's, as they still fit, but that is not what they were issued with. --- Later -- Bill M

Johnny Peppers · 06-07-2002, 10:29 AM

I have not seen one, but from previous posts there are a few 1918 dated Navy Lugers being found. It would be interesting to see it they too have the large head axle pin.

luger11 · 06-08-2002, 09:49 AM

Hi members what a great new site...In answer to the question, my 1918 dated Navy does have the large headed axle pin.......Leo

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2002, 09:57 AM

Hello Luger11, welcome to the site, although I live in Washington State, I have flown into Mass., on many occassions this last year (corp HQ is there), welcome to the forum!

Ed

Johnny Peppers · 06-08-2002, 02:39 PM

[IMG] http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Trigger.jpg[/IMG] This is the trigger on an early 1906 Navy with the serial number upside down. Apparently DWM did not consider it serious enough to change it.

Johnny Peppers · 06-08-2002, 02:44 PM

Anyone have an idea as to why the image didn't open?

John D. · 06-08-2002, 02:50 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny Peppers:
<strong>[IMG] ]http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Trigger.jpg[/IMG] ....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure!! OK you have an extra "]" after "/IMG]]" so - if you'd deleted that to read "/IMG]" - you would'a seen this
[img]biggrin.gif[/img] :

Johnny Peppers · 06-08-2002, 05:40 PM

Huh? I don't see the extra bracket ] anywhere. If there is one, where did it come from as I did a copy from the old forum and a paste here.

[IMG] http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Trigger.jpg[/IMG]

This is exactly what I am seeing with no extra bracket. Hod did you see it?

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2002, 06:42 PM

Johnny, I don't see it either, unless I put my mouse over the "image" wording and then I see a [ on one side and I guess it shouldn't be there?

You could edit your own post and see it then, and if you take out the [ it should show up correctly.

The edit is the pencil and paper above that post icon thingy.

Pete Ebbink · 06-11-2002, 01:29 AM

Hello Johnny,

From what I recall on the old Forum threads, are 1918 Navy lugers to be regarded with some "suspect" ?

Garfield · 06-12-2002, 12:14 AM

IMHO, 1918 chamber dated Navy military lugers, if there are any, are VERY suspect.

06-05-2002, 05:57 PM	#1
Dan Clemons User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grants Pass, OR Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Navy Toggle Question When was the larger flange on the rear toggle pin used? Do you ever see circumstances where the standard pin was used in 1916? Thanks, Dan __________________ Loving Lugers

06-05-2002, 07:25 PM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dan, The large rimmed rear toggle axel was used on Naval Lugers from 1908 on. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

06-05-2002, 08:01 PM	#3
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Dan, I don't have an answer to that question, but I am still curious about a related question I posted earlier on the same subject. What was the reason for the larger flange on the Navy Lugers? Could it have served the same purpose as the Mauser bump on later Lugers? Since the larger flange was not common to any of the other WW-I DWM Lugers, the inclusion of this part in the Navy version was an added-cost item, a fact which would lead one to suspect that the German Navy actually included the larger flange in their specification to DWM. How about it Navy Collectors, does anyone know the history of this? I LOVE IT HERE ! ! ! ! __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-06-2002, 08:21 AM	#5
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Dan, As I mentioned earlier, I don't know the answer to this question, but I have another data point. In a discussion with a 30+ year dealer yesterday, I asked the same question. He gave me the same answer that (MauserLugers) Bill Munis provided above. __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-06-2002, 08:49 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Hey Larry, This new forum has a great new feature! You are allowed to edit your own postings. If you make a mistake, just click on the icon with the pencil and paper above the post with the mistake and it will put you in edit mode. Deleting posts can only be done by one of the forum moderators... Posts will generally not be deleted unless they violate the terms of service or Forum Decorum rules. I will let you edit your second post for the practice... This new forum software is head and shoulders above what we were using... best to you... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-06-2002, 02:05 AM	#4
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Dan, I'm not a big Navy collector, but I think the bigger headed rear connecting pins started in 1916 and were ONLY used on the 1916 and 1917 dated models. You should never see a 1916 or 1917 Navy with a small, or normal size pin. Take care -- Bill Munis

06-06-2002, 06:23 PM	#6
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers: <strong>Hi Dan, I'm not a big Navy collector, but I think the bigger headed rear connecting pins started in 1916 and were ONLY used on the 1916 and 1917 dated models. You should never see a 1916 or 1917 Navy with a small, or normal size pin. Take care -- Bill Munis</strong><hr></blockquote>

06-06-2002, 06:30 PM	#7
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Bill I only have one Navy, a 1908, but it has a larger flange. Sorry about the duplicate of your post, I am going through a learning curve with the new format. larry

06-06-2002, 08:51 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Luke, I have always believed that the large flange Navy Lugers were designed this way to serve the same purpose as the Mauser Bump on the upper receiver... to keep the axle from slipping out when in the most extreme position. I came to this conclusion based on examination of the design engineering and not from any published data... just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-06-2002, 10:49 PM	#10
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Did some checking and Tom Heller was correct. The 1906's have the small headed rear connecting pins and the 1908, 1916, and 1917's all have the larger headed rear connecting pins. You can find a small pin in the 1908's or 1914's, as they still fit, but that is not what they were issued with. --- Later -- Bill M

06-07-2002, 10:29 AM	#11
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have not seen one, but from previous posts there are a few 1918 dated Navy Lugers being found. It would be interesting to see it they too have the large head axle pin.

06-08-2002, 09:49 AM	#12
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi members what a great new site...In answer to the question, my 1918 dated Navy does have the large headed axle pin.......Leo

06-08-2002, 09:57 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Hello Luger11, welcome to the site, although I live in Washington State, I have flown into Mass., on many occassions this last year (corp HQ is there), welcome to the forum! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-08-2002, 02:39 PM	#14
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[IMG] http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Trigger.jpg[/IMG] This is the trigger on an early 1906 Navy with the serial number upside down. Apparently DWM did not consider it serious enough to change it.

06-08-2002, 02:44 PM	#15
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Anyone have an idea as to why the image didn't open?

06-08-2002, 02:50 PM	#16
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Johnny Peppers: <strong>[IMG] ]http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Trigger.jpg[/IMG] ....</strong><hr></blockquote> Sure!! OK you have an extra "]" after "/IMG]]" so - if you'd deleted that to read "/IMG]" - you would'a seen this [img]biggrin.gif[/img] :

06-08-2002, 05:40 PM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Huh? I don't see the extra bracket ] anywhere. If there is one, where did it come from as I did a copy from the old forum and a paste here. [IMG] http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Trigger.jpg[/IMG] This is exactly what I am seeing with no extra bracket. Hod did you see it?

06-08-2002, 06:42 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Johnny, I don't see it either, unless I put my mouse over the "image" wording and then I see a [ on one side and I guess it shouldn't be there? You could edit your own post and see it then, and if you take out the [ it should show up correctly. The edit is the pencil and paper above that post icon thingy. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-11-2002, 01:29 AM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Johnny, From what I recall on the old Forum threads, are 1918 Navy lugers to be regarded with some "suspect" ?

06-12-2002, 12:14 AM	#20
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	IMHO, 1918 chamber dated Navy military lugers, if there are any, are VERY suspect.