1911 question

[southriv]

Herb,

I would like to add that your frame is a 1918 "Black Army". The original pistol was delivered to the Ordnance depot in Brooklyn in mid 1918. The slide, however, is from an earlier Commercial/military 1911. These were commercial models proofed at the Springfield Armory. The frame on those had a serial number with a "c" prefix. The tell tale on the slide is the commercial markings on the right hand side of the slide.The MODEL OF 1911, U.S. ARMY stamped behind the COLT AUTOMTATIC over CALIBRE 45 was done at the armory. These slides were, however, mated to commercial frames (with a "c" prefix serial number) in a known serial number range. There only 160 (+-) made. What is interesting is that these conversions were done in May 1918 in the 340xxx range of Colt production - about exactly when your Black Army frame was made. Maybe something the 1911 folks don't know about, though my best guess is that it is (as previously stated and valued) assembled WW1 parts with some 1911A1 mods.

Bob

[trigger643]

south... I didn't want to say anything about the slide as I was unsure and not knowledgeble enough to comment. I like to focus on 1912-1914 deliveries and my only A1 example is a Clark 1968 vintage Hardball.

[Herb]

Amazing....I guess 1911 collecting is about as complicated as it is for a Luger. All I know about them is from my time in the Army, putting the barel in my mouth and firing a round I could miss. So I assume that it is worth about $1,000 in the condition shown. Are more pictures warranted?

[Edward Tinker]

Glen, Herb is still pissed at me for saying his monkey was a likeness of him so he won't send us the pistol.


Herb, looks like what I carried in the army too, I like the 45, love the luger for its looks, but for stopping power and the heft of a real gun, i'll take one of mine...



Ed

[southriv]

[QUOTE]....I guess 1911 collecting is about as complicated as it is for a Luger[QUOTE]

...actually, while 1911 collecting can be thorny, I think Luger collecting is a whole lot more complicated. For 1911s, you can get about all the book references you need from Charles Clawson's writings. With Lugers, you need about 2 feet of bookshelf space and you need to cope with the fact that a lot of records were destroyed. There are what; 400 variations and still counting...? Then there is the authenticity thing. 1911s, with half a dozen (or more ) documented variations in finish/ bluing are easier to check than 1911A1s (WW11 vintage) as the parking process varied quite a bit and the counterfieters have been very active there. With Lugers, lately it seems that all high dollar collectables (HKS, Navys, etc) are suspect .... same old games with both venues, I guess. In any case, the more of both that you handle and the more mentoring/advice/ second opinions you get from the most seasoned collectors, the safer and happier you will be with your aquisitions.

I think your 1911 is a good vintage shooter and, because of it's slide, more interesting than most. A potential buyer would be most interested in the parts - like the frame and slide. As mentioned before, the other parts (and the slide stop/takedown lever) are from 1911A1 vintage) The frame numbers for the slides are all listed in Clawson's big book (the $$$$ one). If, by a long shot, someone had one of those frame, there could be a match-up . However, that's a long way to a righteous original.

Ed, Nice '43' RR.....& I definately see things your way, too.

Bob

[Herb]

When I get serious I bring out my favorite companion, I can put every round in a 3' circle at 200 yards with this baby........

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sw29.jpg

If Big Norm would share a dribble of that Chivas of his I might get that down to 2'

[Herb]

Seriously, I appreciate the input from all who have contributed, I had no Idea as to what my 1911 was or what it is worth, thanks guys, thats what makes this a great forum. Just a little info, I traded an SA dress dagger and a Red Cross dagger for it.

[Herb]

One last observation. Why is this thing marked 'calibre' which is the British term for 'caliber ??

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/calibre.jpg

[trigger643]

Herb,

The early commercial slides were marked "calibre". The newest commercial I have owned was a 1915 vintage marked as such.

As a 'generalist' collector, I'll admit my knowledge is rather shallow, but fairly broad with spikes here and there (1st and 2nd delivery 1911's up to ser# 25,000, for instance), and I've even owned a few early civilians.

In my experience where 1911 and Luger collectors differ is in the definitions of "Correct", "Right" and "restoration'. I don't know many 1911 people that would lose sleep over swapping out a barrel or even an entire sub assembly, as long as the finish/wear matched. As few parts were numbered on 1911s and spare parts remain plentiful, this luxury of "correctness" is not available to Luger collectors.

Here is ser# 24212, I recently sold on GB. It was perhaps the most 'correct' 1911 I have owned to date and was documented through springfield research service.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1003/dsc000953ef.jpg

[Herb]

Nice one. I can sure see the differences in the markings between your's and mine. Ed ought to throw his in the trash, it looks like someone used an electro pencil on the bottom the frame.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Herb
Nice one. I can sure see the differences in the markings between your's and mine. Ed ought to throw his in the trash, it looks like someone used an electro pencil on the bottom the frame.

I hear that! It is a really nice gun, except somebody put a Texas license number on it....

[trigger643]

Ed, Those DL and SS# scratches don't bother me. Back in the 50's and 60's insurance agents thought that was the best way to protect firearms from theft. At least they didn't spray paint them orange.