Portuguese Navy Lugers

[Pete Ebbink]

With such terms used in the sales ad as "collector grade" and "excellent" and "a jewel", one should note the term "factory original finish" or similar is not included in the attempt to sell it for nearly $ 4900 asking.

I am pretty sure a refinish and collector-grade are a bit mutually exclusive.

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

I know where you are coming from, but it sems to me that with items of sufficient rarity as Portuguese Navys originality of finish is not really a collector-grade issue, only cost.

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Dwight,

The FGS folks have a decent, original finish and matching Portuguese Crown luger for sale at $ 4500.

http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo.html

I understand that some of the rare lugers even refinished are still desireable.

I would think a refinished piece would still command less market-value than an original finish piece that is all matching or at least should if I were a buyer.

I guess the trick is to read such sales ads for the words and phrases that are absent in the ad and take meaning from that.

[LugerVern]

As a new collector am I allowed an opinion?

Ahâ??what the heck.

I too believe that the PIAâ??s Royal Navy is truly a Royal Navy; except for the frame ( look closely) the fancy art work and the out of sequence serial number it looks completely legitimate.

I think I am going to go for the untouched ones for my collection, they made very few Portugal Navyâ??s, and with all this rework going on even a real doggie thatâ??s original has to go up in value. Ron hang onto your Royal Navy tired or not

Vern

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete and Vern,

Very well considered.

--Dwight

[LugerVern]

This is an information gathering post and I wanted to share some information I gained yesterday at the Nations Gun Show.

I talked to Ken of FGS, and he informed me that FGS was one of the original importers of the Portuguese Navyâ??s.â??good lead Pete.

Ken told me a couple of things of interest to all collectors:

1) That not all the R P Lugers he had received had the â??MPâ?� proof on themâ??so this will require more research to determine why, when it was dropped, or if another proof was substituted in its place..

2) He informed me that someone came by their table to talk of Portuguese Lugers and said they were writing an article â??I have more than a passing interest in these guns; does anyone know who this is and who the article is for?. I want a copy pretty bad.

FGS was kind enough to bring 3 RP Lugers for me to look at; 2 in the 400 serial range 402 & 446 & 1 in the 300 serial range SN: 365

365 & 402 had the MP proof but 446 did notâ??now 446 had been refinished but not buffed to death by some amateur, very nicely done- I looked at this gun with both a 10 & 20 power jewelerâ??s loupe there was no indication that an MP proof had ever been applied.

402 had an un-serialized side plate but as noted above still had the MP proof-- interesting

All 3 Lugers displayed the same chamber marking without the chain extension on the left noted in Lugers at Random.

I purchased Serial Number 365, RP Luger from FGS and will post that gun for review later this week. on a different post. It has some features I noticed that that you will find interesting.

Ken has promised me a listing of the serial numbers of the RP Lugers they still have in stockâ??with FGSâ??s permission I will post the numbers here and on Ronâ??s original post of about serial numbers of Portuguese Navyâ??s.

Thanks

Vern

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Vern,

Glad you were able to secure some more Portuguese luger info. Doug and Ken have been helpful to me with Swiss info. even though I might not be buying anything from them at the time.

Look forward to seeing your new luger when you have time to post. And any further Portuguese research you uncover.

[Ron Wood]

Vern,
Glad you got your RP! The #365 was my pick of the litter.

[LugerVern]

Ron

Could you do me a favor, look under the left grip of your Royal Navy, on the frame center rail, and tell me if you have the inspector mark letter â?�Fâ?� at the top and the letter â??Pâ?� about half way down the center rail?

I would also like to know what if any inspector marks you have at the bottom left and right?

If anyone else with a Royal or RP Navy would do the same it would be appreciated, I think I am seeing a trend that spans the two models but need more data.

Thank you

Vern

[Ron Wood]

Vern,

The left grip frame is a veritable "vegtable soup" of markings. Starting at the top there is your "F". About 1/2 inch below that is a "B" (at first I thought it was a "P" so check yours carefully). A little further down at the mainspring web there is an "N". At the very bottom below the pivot point for the grip safety there is a "2" and just below that a "V". At the bottom on the toe of the grip is a "D". All of the marks, except for the "B" are "upside down", i.e. the base of the character is at the top.

Nothing that I can see on the right hand side.

Hope this helps.
Ron

[LugerVern]

Thanks Ron:

Yes, your information helps to clarify what I am seeing. There are so few examples though a proper conclusion is not forthcoming; as of yet.

Your second letter â??Bâ?� is not the same as the Letter â??Pâ?� I am seeing on the RP Lugers, so that must have changed at some point or may not be consistent.
I did not expect the other inspector marks below the first two to be of use as they appear to be random in nature.

That letter â??Fâ?� at the top may be the point to watch for.

One other question for you: Does your Royal Navy display an Early DWM barrel inspector proof in the front frame well? This proof is shown at the top of page 189 in Costanzoâ??s World of Luger Proof Marks referenced as 106. It appears as a shield with a slash across it.

Any information is always appreciated


Vern

[Ron Wood]

Vern,

No proofs in the front frame well, just numbers...1, 3, 6 and 8. The 1 is about twice the height of the other numbers.

Interesting marking on your RP. I have never seen that mark anywhere but on a barrel. Doesn't mean it isn't rignt. More than likely it just means that that is the stamp of the inspector that checked out the frame that day.

Ron

[LugerVern]

Thanks Ron

Yes, interesting DWM proof, and I think youâ??re correct in that it is just the inspector for that part and nothing more..

Interesting about you number â??1â?� being so big, I have a large number â??3â?� along with a normal â??9â?�.

Thanks for all your help; I will leave you alone now, while I do more research.
I am still waiting for FGS to supply me with the remaining R.P. serial numbers and will post when I get them.

I will post some good pictures of the chamber marking and that proof when I get my camera backâ??never loan any thing good, it comes back slowly.

By the way, PIAâ??s Royal Navy has that â??Fâ?� inspector mark also, go have a peek if your curiousâ??I can not tell if the second letter is a â??B or Pâ?� or something else, maybe your eyes can make it out.


Thanks again

Vern

[LugerVern]

I would like to add a couple of pictures to this post for information; as most references are of pretty poor quality.

The chamber marking is of interest as it shows 3 chevrons in the center 3 sections, and two on the outside sections on the upper portion of the anchor. Please note how the rope winds around the anchor and how the rope stops before it intersects the lower portion of the anchor.

The serial number on the barrel and the â??MPâ?� proof have a halo but not the frame serial number. The complete serial number is stamped on the bottom on the receiver.

Research indicates that the â??MPâ?� proof stopped around the 500 serial number on the RP Lugers. It is not clear as to why this happened. This is exactly mid way in RP Luger serial numbers and raises several questions.

Any information on this would be appreciated?

I hope this post helps those who may be interested in purchasing one of these Lugers.

These Portuguese Navy Lugers are not thoroughly researched, if anyone has additional information please forward to me and I will share likewise.

Thanks again for everyoneâ??s help!

Vern

[LugerVern]

MP Proof