Erfurt Side Plate

[Kyrie]

Hi Johnny,


Iâ??m sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with your comment that â??a part can be original without being THE original partâ??. If any part is not original to the pistol then the pistol is not all original - which is what the term â??matchingâ?? means to a collector.


Regarding calling a pistol that has been made to appear to be something that it is not a fake, â??fakeâ?? is the most descriptive word I can think of.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Absolutely no offense intended, but I think you have missed the point of what â??matchingâ?? means to a collector. Matching is collector verbal shorthand for â??the pistol has all its original partsâ??. If a seller describes a pistol as â??all matchingâ?? he is making a statement of the pistolâ??s condition, and value.


Regarding telling the difference between side plates â??between 2 or more like kind same number sideplates in equal condition made by the same manufacturer within a short time period say 5 yearsâ?? I have two comments. Firstly, the situation arises so rarely that the question never comes up in the real world. Secondly, there are indeed ways to tell which side plate (if either) is original to a specific pistol. This is actually a subject that has come up here, and one of the methods to make determination has been discussed. I will not discuss it further, as I will not aid those folks I view as forgers in an activity I can only see as unethical and unlawful.


Your comment that a Luger which has been made to look like it matches by substituting parts â??will not be devalued but will increase in value because of the matching sideplateâ?? is precisely what Iâ??m warning folks about, and why I call such pieces fakes.


In terms of swapping un-numbered parts, some fakes are easier to spot that others. The swapping of un-numbered parts can be very difficult to detect. Failing to detect a fake does not make the pistol genuine any more than an unsolved crime ceases to be a crime if the culprit isnâ??t caught and convicted. Not getting caught isnâ??t the same thing as being honest


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi ViggoG,


I must respectfully disagree with your definition of the word â??matchingâ?? as â??denotes that all parts are of the proper type and manufactureâ??. Luger parts were numbered to a specific pistol because the Luger pre-dates fully interchangeable parts - the parts needed to be numbered. This has given Luger collectors the ability to assess whether a Luger had all original parts by examining the marking of the parts. The unscrupulous and the uninformed have used this characteristic of Luger manufacture as a cheap way to make an mismatched Luger of no collector interest or value appear to be a matched Luger with collector value.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Good that you agree with those that agree with you, but the pistol is what it is. You can paint it purple and it is still a 1916 Erfurt even though it is not the original color nor is it a fake.

[Kyrie]

Hi Ted,


That's an excellent idea - I'll see what I can do


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Johnny,


No one has said it wasnâ??t a 1916 Erfurt - thatâ??s not the topic under discussion


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

I went back and looked at the original post, and Bob had an inquiry about getting a correctly numbered sideplate for his 1916 Erfurt. Tom Heller offered his help, and then the discussion ended up by Bob being told that he was creating a fake. The pistol is a 1916 dated Erfurt, and with a new sideplate it will still be a 1916 Erfurt. It will not be a fake, and there was no question relating to fake in Bob's original post. Who got off the discussion originally?

I disagree. We are having these kinds of problems because people are being very liberal with the use of the term matching.

Matching used to mean that the pistol was in original condition.


With the recent flood of rebuilt imports of all types, the term now means all the numbers are the same, even though the matching numbers may be crude and obvious restrikes.


I think I understand what Kyrie means.


It's the improper use of a collector term by those that would like to create the impression that not original really is.


Confused?


Well, that's what this forum is for. The information on how to tell what is what is here, you just have to ferret it out.


I wondered why Kyrie didn't say what the obvious was until I saw that it was NOT obvious.


Collecting anything can be risky, you have to know your stuff. I mean you REALLY have to know your stuff.


Mike

Kyrie,


The exact situation of a matching sideplate turning up for an unmatched sideplate gun has happened several times in my collecting career. You say that you can tell the difference but then you fail to divulge how using the excuse that you do not want to inform fakers on how to distinguish the difference even though you said that the exact subject was duscussed in this forum in the past. I still wish to be educated on how one determines the difference, even if you choose to do so by private e-mail.


The bottem line is the perception of the individual collector. If it is impossible to tell, even by an experienced expert that the part is not an original part, then it is matching in my eyes. The notion in my head that the part has been switched may be the only evidence of the substitution and if the switch is otherwise undetectable, then I am satisifyed. If you can educate me on your detection process then I will change my mind.


If you check my profile you will see that I am deeply into the vintage sportscar world and this is a discussion we vintage sportscar collectors have all the time. In this world restoration is an accepted reality though there are parameters which we endeavor to follow. Mechanical parts are generally numbered as in Lugers and mismatched parts effect value. Detecting restamped numbers is a developed expertise but in the world of Lugers there is a special situation where the numbers are not restamped only repeated and the numbers and parts are identical (Again, please educate me on how to tell the difference). We have even resorted to spectroscopy to detect replica chassis and parts. Car collectors however do not split hairs about original air in tires or original oil in crankcases and until one informes me on how to determine the differences in like kind sideplates, I will respectfully disagree with your position.


Ciao,


Bill S.

[bill m]

Mike,

That is exactly the point. You would never know the difference if no one would tell you, and do you really think a dealer is going to volunteer this information? Every Luger that you or Kyrie, or I own, is suspect to not being original as issued. Outside of the proper numbers and proofs there is no way that anyone can tell what was put on at the factory and what was put on 5 months ago. Anyone that claims they can tell the difference in a factory installed firing pin, or hold-open, or trigger is just plain full of bull****, in my opinion! All this "restored" and "not original" crap is just that -- "crap", as no one has the capability to tell when the part was put on, being it a part from a like gun. Sure, the inside side plate number gives you a clue on Mausers, but there are exceptions to that also. Outside of a few polish marks, there is just no way to know unless you were at the factory to pick up the gun. Once your neighbor, or friend, sells you that Luger, and they would never mess with it, right, or take it to a gunsmith, or a dealer to look at, you presume it is original and as it left the factory. You do not know this, but this is what you believe. In the real world, you would never be told what was replaced, and you would never have a clue, and you would be a happy little camper with your new toy! I understand Kyrie's point of view, but it just isn't going to happen that way, and for the past 50 years collectors and dealers have been switching parts. No one knows what was put on at the factory, so we have to go by all matching numbers of the same style and finish and correct proofs and polish marks and rub marks. This whole thread is getting ridicious as to what is "original" and what is "restored", as unless you did it, there is no one else going to know!

[ViggoG]

And a Hi to you too, Kyre ;

I must disagree with your interpetation of the origin of Serial Numbers and the use thereof .

To deviate for a moment ;

During the years of WW-2, The shortage of machine tools was beyond belief. Machine tools were at a premium and old machines from the pre-Luger days were being rebuilt and returned to service .

In those days I personally worked in a machine shop that had as as the newest machine A Brown and Sharpe Milling Machine having the latest patent issued in the year 1892 .

This machine when properly rebuilt was fully capable of producing Luger Frames and Cannon Assy's that were capable of full interchangability when manufactured on the proper fixtures and fitted to the gaging systems that could be constructed on the very machines that were used to produce the parts.

Some of these machines were used during the war to produce Steam Turbine Blades More accurately than any fit required of the most critical Luger Parts.

So interchangability was not the problem that spawned the need for serial no's.

The true need for serial no's. came about from the birth of mass production and production changes that were introduced into the product, as a method to record these changes for future orders or parts replacement .

A system of tracking various parts to match the many varieties of needs of the purchaser generated such a hodge poge of weapons of similar but differing changes (the majority of which were mainly cosmetic) that the People at "DWM" were required to introduce a system of tracking contracts .

These same problems confound us to this day when the records on "Spacecraft Parts" often outweigh the finished part .

I know , I used to make them and even designed the fixtures to verify the Quality of these Spacecraft parts .

For any collector to say these numbering systems were developed to verify the Originality of these parts is a bit presumptious .

You are very Knowlegible of the manvarieties and changes that have been made to these by the many different Facilities for production .(some of which my friends altered during the war).

They were an end to fit a need of the day and have been taken and applied to a use that was not intended at the time of their origin .

They were meant to be used to pull parts of the shelf to fill or replace contract parts , a use that remains to this day common to our industrial needs.

Due to the variety of ways that those in authority think , these numbering systems as originally concieved have been changed to hide the truth until they are practically worthless for any use and we are splitting hairs over a few misapplied words , when there is no way to reach a middle ground unless we draw new lines to describe the disputed product .

With all due respect Either or both of us may be on the right track , only a Professor of Language with both your and my experiences can make this descrimination.

Add another $.02

ViggoG