Odd Swiss 1906 Bern

Lugers down under · 10-20-2006, 03:24 AM

Hi Guys,
I need some help with a very nice Swiss 1906 Waffenfabrik Bern I purchased in an auction here in New Zealand a few days ago.
The gun is really in excellent condition with 95% blue and straw all over and a lovely barrel. The privatization date is 1945.
(I am sorry the photo is a little dark)

The gun has been fitted with a 1906/29 rear toggle section which is not numbered. The gun number is 21588 and is all matching numbers except the rear toggle section which however, does have an inspection stamp inside, E25 and a Swiss cross. The front of the toggle and breech are numbered 88 to the gun.
The gun also is fitted with a 1906/29 W+F magazine.

What is strange is that the rear toggle section is very similar to the 1906/29 W/F but it is not the same and has slight knurling on the outer sides while the "rims" if one can call them that are smooth like the later Swiss guns.
(see below)

There is some suggestion that it could be a transitional model but I do not think I could be that lucky. I think that it could be a rework.

I would be interested in any views you can share with me on this interesting gun.

Many thanks
Murray.

Lugerdoc · 10-20-2006, 12:09 PM

Murry, Your rear toggle link appears to be a replacement using one made for the Mauser Parabellum, on the Swiss machinery post 1970. TH

Pete Ebbink · 10-20-2006, 12:59 PM

Murray,

Shattuck here in the USA has had several of these...claimed to be "presentation pieces"...some for sale. In a past email to me, Ralph also stated these were "salesman factory samples" when I asked about one that was for sale on Gun Borker. A couple of such of those are photo'd in some of the old luger books.

I think they are just "assembled" guns with various parts.

The prototypes (aka hybrids) from Switzerland from the old Bern factory and museum have a "V-x" serial number added. Shattuck's pieces do not if I recall correctly.

Doug Smith had one of the Swiss prototypes number V-12 at the last SOS show in KY. As he did a disassembly for me, Ron Wood, and others, we discovered the gun was actually a M1899 prototype No. 22 which had a M1929 toggle train added and the V-12 number assigned.

Lugers down under · 10-20-2006, 02:49 PM

Thanks guys,
I thought it had to be something like you both suggest.
If you look closely at the second photo, you might notice a small chip in the second part of the toggle link, where it joins the third section.
I think that the gun has has a "woop'sy" at some time and the original knurled toggle section has been broken and thus replaced.
I think the gun may have been refinished at that time as there is little to no wear marks on the cams and the area under the safety lever is blued.
All of the other parts of the gun are original and numbered accordingly.

I think I may have got me a lemon., still it is an interesting item all the same.

Pete Ebbink · 10-20-2006, 02:56 PM

Murray,

If the price was right, nothing wrong with having it as a shooter in your safe !

BTW...I have seen 3 or 4 Swiss M1929 Bern lugers with the "home-made" dicing lines added by an owner or local gun-smith. Some folks may have found the smooth toggle knobs of the m1929 a bit too smooth and slippery for their liking.

NavyLugerLover · 10-23-2006, 08:25 AM

V numbers: V = Versuch = Reseach (or prototype)

Pete Ebbink · 02-07-2007, 02:55 PM

Murray's gun has some company :

This '24 Bern has some M1929 toggle knobs...

http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/lis...mnum=854991338

This M1929 has that odd "pattern" added to the normally smooth toggle knobs...

http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/lis...mnum=854484496

Lugerdoc · 02-08-2007, 11:06 AM

Since the 1970s Mauser Parabellums were made on the previously Swiss owned M29 machinery, it does not seem unreasonable to me, that persons seeking repair parts after 1970, would get them from Mauser. If the parts are Swiss inspector marked inside, they were probably installed at the Bern arsenal. TH

10-20-2006, 03:24 AM	#1
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Odd Swiss 1906 Bern Hi Guys, I need some help with a very nice Swiss 1906 Waffenfabrik Bern I purchased in an auction here in New Zealand a few days ago. The gun is really in excellent condition with 95% blue and straw all over and a lovely barrel. The privatization date is 1945. (I am sorry the photo is a little dark) The gun has been fitted with a 1906/29 rear toggle section which is not numbered. The gun number is 21588 and is all matching numbers except the rear toggle section which however, does have an inspection stamp inside, E25 and a Swiss cross. The front of the toggle and breech are numbered 88 to the gun. The gun also is fitted with a 1906/29 W+F magazine. What is strange is that the rear toggle section is very similar to the 1906/29 W/F but it is not the same and has slight knurling on the outer sides while the "rims" if one can call them that are smooth like the later Swiss guns. (see below) There is some suggestion that it could be a transitional model but I do not think I could be that lucky. I think that it could be a rework. I would be interested in any views you can share with me on this interesting gun. Many thanks Murray. __________________ Lugers down under

10-20-2006, 12:09 PM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Murry, Your rear toggle link appears to be a replacement using one made for the Mauser Parabellum, on the Swiss machinery post 1970. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

10-20-2006, 02:49 PM	#4
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks guys, I thought it had to be something like you both suggest. If you look closely at the second photo, you might notice a small chip in the second part of the toggle link, where it joins the third section. I think that the gun has has a "woop'sy" at some time and the original knurled toggle section has been broken and thus replaced. I think the gun may have been refinished at that time as there is little to no wear marks on the cams and the area under the safety lever is blued. All of the other parts of the gun are original and numbered accordingly. I think I may have got me a lemon., still it is an interesting item all the same. __________________ Lugers down under

10-23-2006, 08:25 AM	#6
NavyLugerLover User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: American Citizen outside the USA (Austria) Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	V numbers: V = Versuch = Reseach (or prototype) __________________ Swiss Lugers, (.30): DWM 1900, 1906 2nd variation, W+F 1906-24, 1929 Privat, 1929 Military, 9 mm 1929 Military. WW1 DWM German Lugers (9mm): Lange Pistolen P08-14 1916 & 1917, P08 1913, P08-14 1917, Navy P1904 altered safety, Navy P04-1906 downward safety. WW 2 Mauser German Lugers (9mm): 42-1940, byf 41, byf 42 black widow. And some other things...

02-08-2007, 11:06 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Since the 1970s Mauser Parabellums were made on the previously Swiss owned M29 machinery, it does not seem unreasonable to me, that persons seeking repair parts after 1970, would get them from Mauser. If the parts are Swiss inspector marked inside, they were probably installed at the Bern arsenal. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

10-20-2006, 12:59 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Murray, Shattuck here in the USA has had several of these...claimed to be "presentation pieces"...some for sale. In a past email to me, Ralph also stated these were "salesman factory samples" when I asked about one that was for sale on Gun Borker. A couple of such of those are photo'd in some of the old luger books. I think they are just "assembled" guns with various parts. The prototypes (aka hybrids) from Switzerland from the old Bern factory and museum have a "V-x" serial number added. Shattuck's pieces do not if I recall correctly. Doug Smith had one of the Swiss prototypes number V-12 at the last SOS show in KY. As he did a disassembly for me, Ron Wood, and others, we discovered the gun was actually a M1899 prototype No. 22 which had a M1929 toggle train added and the V-12 number assigned.

10-20-2006, 02:56 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Murray, If the price was right, nothing wrong with having it as a shooter in your safe ! BTW...I have seen 3 or 4 Swiss M1929 Bern lugers with the "home-made" dicing lines added by an owner or local gun-smith. Some folks may have found the smooth toggle knobs of the m1929 a bit too smooth and slippery for their liking.

02-07-2007, 02:55 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Murray's gun has some company : This '24 Bern has some M1929 toggle knobs... http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/lis...mnum=854991338 This M1929 has that odd "pattern" added to the normally smooth toggle knobs... http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/lis...mnum=854484496