Pics Of Sneak Luger ??? "PIC"

deansova · 08-19-2007, 10:58 PM

Picked this all matching luger up seems to be a "SNEAK" Luger any thought and info you can give me would be apreciated.

Dean Sova (313)299-9533

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2007, 11:05 PM

Dean, why do you call it a sneak?

I have never seen that marking on the right, the eagle 6W3 (or GW3)...

A mauser rework is what I assume it is being thought of? (DWM toggle, with nazi era marings (S/42 etc..)

Can you take a picture of full left and full right?

Ed

LugerVern · 08-20-2007, 12:36 AM

Eagle GW3 /Per CostanzoÃ¢??s: GEWEHR Rifle factory #3, converted to accept Lugers mid 1935

Dwight Gruber · 08-20-2007, 04:10 AM

Dean,

The S/42 marked barrel is a Nazi-era spare part, made between 1936-1939. The e/63 on the barrel is the mark of the inspector who inspected it, and the e/GW3 is probably the mark of the final inspector of the rebarreling modification. The e/Hakenkreuz is the late German Army power proof, dating the rebarreling to 1939 or later.

Costanzo's interpretation of the stamp should be considerd as out-dated speculation.

Other markings on this gun are equally interesting. The dove/WaA(number?) on the breechblock is an early Weimar-era Reichswehr power proof. The c/Ns on the left frame and receiver are commercial rework proofs.

It would be useful to see a picture of the top of the breechblock, and to know if there is a mark on the breechblock's right side. It might be instructive to see the full serial number on the front of the frame, including the letter suffix.

And Ed is right about full views. There does not appear to be a sear safety on this gun, is that correct?

--Dwight

deansova · 08-20-2007, 10:14 AM

Looks like all of the same markings I have seen on some K98b Rifles I have even the firing PROOF looks like the mid 30s stuff I have on my early 98k and 98b rifles. Dean Sova (313)299-9533 I thought they ground all the markings on reworks?? Serial number is 4966 no suffix no grind marks nice and clean . Please explain the safety difrences you mentioned.

deansova · 08-20-2007, 10:31 AM

S/42 was used atleast as ealy as 1934 if not before. The font on all parts numbered is the same. I believe this is made from DWM parts shipped to mauser. Even some general Military Gun books I have make refrence to these parts and DWM marked guns being made at Mauser.

Dwight Gruber · 08-20-2007, 12:24 PM

Dean,

You are of course correct about the S/42 code being in use in 1934.

The pattern of c/N application suggests that this gun was reworked by a firm most likely in Suhl. The dove/WaA on the breechblock is unexpected in combination with the other markings found on this pistol, and knowing if there is a c/N on the top of the breechblock would reveal a strong indication whether or not the breechblock is original to the comercial rework.

29DWM Lugers (which are those formerly referred to as "sneaks", an obsolete term) are found with s, t, or u letter suffixes, and proofed differently from yours. Along with the c/Ns, the lack of suffix on your pistol suggests that it started life as an Imperial military DWM. Sometimes the original marks were removed during rework and sometimes they were left in place. Very often the removal was done in a very craftsmanlike manner, and difficult to determine even under close observation.

The DWM manufacturing equipment and inventory was transferred to Mauser in Oberndorf in 1930. Lugers assembled by Mauser from these parts have characteristics which this gun does not share, most noteably a Crown/crown/U proof mark and letter suffix of v or later. Current research is supplanting much of the previously published material and "conventional wisdom" concerning this era of Luger production.

If you will do a Forum search on "sear safety" you will find many posts and photographs which clearly explain the device.

--Dwight

deansova · 08-20-2007, 02:06 PM

if the breech block is the piece infront of the DWM marked piece then no it has no marks other than the DOVE WAa?? on it I decided to take it apart and the trigger is also numbered as is the rest of the luger. including the inside of the grips. There are some letters stamped on the fram under the grips.

Dwight Gruber · 08-20-2007, 02:38 PM

The breechblock is indeed the frontmost piece of the toggle train. The suite of proof marks applied to Lugers by the state proof house at Suhl includes horizontal c/Ns on the left frame and receiver, and a c/N stamped on the top surface of the breechblock. Absence of the breechblock c/N, along with the Weimar-era dove/WaA, strongly suggests that the breechblock is a later replacement taken from a different gun.

The letters under the grips are workers' marks. They were applied during manufacture by production line workers or supervisors, probably to certify completion or inspection of a task--the details of their application is unknown.

--Dwight

08-19-2007, 10:58 PM	#1
deansova User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Pics Of Sneak Luger ??? "PIC" Picked this all matching luger up seems to be a "SNEAK" Luger any thought and info you can give me would be apreciated. Dean Sova (313)299-9533

08-19-2007, 11:05 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,936 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Dean, why do you call it a sneak? I have never seen that marking on the right, the eagle 6W3 (or GW3)... A mauser rework is what I assume it is being thought of? (DWM toggle, with nazi era marings (S/42 etc..) Can you take a picture of full left and full right? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-20-2007, 10:14 AM	#5
deansova User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	More "PICS" Looks like all of the same markings I have seen on some K98b Rifles I have even the firing PROOF looks like the mid 30s stuff I have on my early 98k and 98b rifles. Dean Sova (313)299-9533 I thought they ground all the markings on reworks?? Serial number is 4966 no suffix no grind marks nice and clean . Please explain the safety difrences you mentioned.

08-20-2007, 12:36 AM	#3
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Eagle GW3 /Per CostanzoÃ¢??s: GEWEHR Rifle factory #3, converted to accept Lugers mid 1935

08-20-2007, 04:10 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Dean, The S/42 marked barrel is a Nazi-era spare part, made between 1936-1939. The e/63 on the barrel is the mark of the inspector who inspected it, and the e/GW3 is probably the mark of the final inspector of the rebarreling modification. The e/Hakenkreuz is the late German Army power proof, dating the rebarreling to 1939 or later. Costanzo's interpretation of the stamp should be considerd as out-dated speculation. Other markings on this gun are equally interesting. The dove/WaA(number?) on the breechblock is an early Weimar-era Reichswehr power proof. The c/Ns on the left frame and receiver are commercial rework proofs. It would be useful to see a picture of the top of the breechblock, and to know if there is a mark on the breechblock's right side. It might be instructive to see the full serial number on the front of the frame, including the letter suffix. And Ed is right about full views. There does not appear to be a sear safety on this gun, is that correct? --Dwight

08-20-2007, 10:31 AM	#6
deansova User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	S/42 was used atleast as ealy as 1934 if not before. The font on all parts numbered is the same. I believe this is made from DWM parts shipped to mauser. Even some general Military Gun books I have make refrence to these parts and DWM marked guns being made at Mauser.

08-20-2007, 12:24 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Dean, You are of course correct about the S/42 code being in use in 1934. The pattern of c/N application suggests that this gun was reworked by a firm most likely in Suhl. The dove/WaA on the breechblock is unexpected in combination with the other markings found on this pistol, and knowing if there is a c/N on the top of the breechblock would reveal a strong indication whether or not the breechblock is original to the comercial rework. 29DWM Lugers (which are those formerly referred to as "sneaks", an obsolete term) are found with s, t, or u letter suffixes, and proofed differently from yours. Along with the c/Ns, the lack of suffix on your pistol suggests that it started life as an Imperial military DWM. Sometimes the original marks were removed during rework and sometimes they were left in place. Very often the removal was done in a very craftsmanlike manner, and difficult to determine even under close observation. The DWM manufacturing equipment and inventory was transferred to Mauser in Oberndorf in 1930. Lugers assembled by Mauser from these parts have characteristics which this gun does not share, most noteably a Crown/crown/U proof mark and letter suffix of v or later. Current research is supplanting much of the previously published material and "conventional wisdom" concerning this era of Luger production. If you will do a Forum search on "sear safety" you will find many posts and photographs which clearly explain the device. --Dwight

08-20-2007, 02:06 PM	#8
deansova User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	if the breech block is the piece infront of the DWM marked piece then no it has no marks other than the DOVE WAa?? on it I decided to take it apart and the trigger is also numbered as is the rest of the luger. including the inside of the grips. There are some letters stamped on the fram under the grips.

08-20-2007, 02:38 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	The breechblock is indeed the frontmost piece of the toggle train. The suite of proof marks applied to Lugers by the state proof house at Suhl includes horizontal c/Ns on the left frame and receiver, and a c/N stamped on the top surface of the breechblock. Absence of the breechblock c/N, along with the Weimar-era dove/WaA, strongly suggests that the breechblock is a later replacement taken from a different gun. The letters under the grips are workers' marks. They were applied during manufacture by production line workers or supervisors, probably to certify completion or inspection of a task--the details of their application is unknown. --Dwight