MY NEW LUGER P08 (help with markings!)

fantomark · 09-03-2007, 10:41 AM

Ciao to all the Forum Luger Experts!!

Eventually I got myself a new luger!
I did not manage to get the HK, sice someone else arrived before...

In any case I am quite pleased with what I got.

It is a 9mm 1921 DWM (all matching apart from magazine, which has a metal bottom plug instead of the correct brown wood)
Condition is very nice overall including walnut grips & metal parts (I will post photos when I get myself a decent digital camera), with still a good portion of strawing.
Barrel is in superb condition, showing virtually no signs of use.

The best thing is that works like a marvel, and it's very accurate too!!
I took it to the range on Sunday firing 100 rounds (SELLIER, MFS, and DYNAMIT NOBEL) with not one sigle problem!

The has German proof marks, that thanks to the info on the Forum Website I have been able to identify.
These include the German Eagle with Swastika and an eagle with 63 below it.

In adition, however, there are a couple of markings that I have not been able to trace:
One is the inscription in capital letters: VOH and the other is an NP mark , where the P and the N have one "leg" in common....Hope I can make myself understood!!

Can anybody help?

Thanks and Ciao to Everybody!!

fantomark · 09-03-2007, 01:04 PM

Ciao!

here is the explanation!

In fact the guy informing that the 9mm Para is forbidden in Italy was me (starting the thread, I mean, and then setting off a brisk debate!...) in a previous post.

In short situation is this.
9mm PARA is currently forbidden in Italy for commercial sales/civilian use of BOTH firearms and ammo.
All firearms which were originally 9mm PARABELUM , before going on the civilian market MUST be converted as per the following 2 options:

A) - retaining the 9mm caliber , but modified to accept 9x21 ammo (like the Luger I am now talking about)

B) - having the gun sleeved in order to use 7.65 PARA ammo (in fact my other P08 - a 1918 DWM - is a 7.65 PARA, who in its "previous life was a 9mm PARA.

Incidentally I have been told that until 15-20 years ago option B was the only one legally allowed, so only relatively recently we in Italy have been allowed civilian use of the 9mm calibre.

As to Lugers, clearly either modifications will results in a decrease Ciao to all the Forum Luger Experts!!

Eventually I got myself a new luger!
I did not manage to get the HK, sice someone else arrived before...

In any case I am quite pleased with what I got.

It is a 9mm 1921 DWM (all matching apart from magazine, which has a metal bottom plug instead of the correct brown wood)
Condition is very nice overall including walnut grips & metal parts (I will post photos when I get myself a decent digital camera), with still a good portion of strawing.
Barrel is in superb condition, showing virtually no signs of use.

The best thing is that works like a marvel, and it's very accurate too!!
I took it to the range on Sunday firing 100 rounds (SELLIER, MFS, and DYNAMIT NOBEL) with not one sigle problem!

The has German proof marks, that thanks to the info on the Forum Website I have been able to identify.
These include the German Eagle with Swastika and an eagle with 63 below it.

In adition, however, there are a couple of markings that I have not been able to trace:
One is the inscription in capital letters: VOH and the other is an NP mark , where the P and the N have one "leg" in common....Hope I can make myself understood!!

Can anybody help?

Thanks and Ciao to Everybody!!

Ciao!

Yes, It was probably me starting the debate about Italian regulations in a previous post!

Please let me clarify:

9mm PARABELLUM is still forbidden for commercial sales / civilian use of both firearms and Ammo (ie: its use is only restricted to the Army and Law Enforcement Units).

This situation has led to 2 options as far as 9 para Lugers are concerned:

A) - guns modified to accept 9X21 ammo (like the P08 I am now talking about)

B) - guns modified by sleeving of barrel in order to fire the 7.65 para ammo (like my other Luger, a 1918 DWM , thet in its "previous life" was also a 9 para).

- Incidentally, recently, I was informed that until aprox. 15 years ago ALL 9mm ammo was forbidden for civilian use!

As things stands, in either case the value of one's weapon is somewhat decreased anyway, and, a result, there are now 2 different schools of thougts:

There are collectors who mantain (a minority in fact) that option 2 is the best (or the lesser evil!) since still allows use of an ammo that was specifically devised for the Luger pistol.

On the other hand, qther collectors (perhaps the majority) believe that keeping the original calibre is a preferable option, even if one will end up firing a type of ammo that was never originally fired in any Lugers.

One other Italian peculiarty is that we are only allowed to own 3 "common" (ie: non sporting and post 1890) firearms, (unless you manage to obtain a special collector's licence - but then you would not be allowed to fire the weapons you have in the collectors list, I believe).

On top of the 3 common weapons (in practice all modern pistols), we are allowed to keep 6 Sporting weapons (ie weapons listed in the Official Firearms Catalogue as firearms devised for use as competition weapons) and 8 antique (ie pre 1890) guns.

So over here one must be particularly careful about what one buys.
For example, in addition to the 2 Lugers I also have a WWII Webley, so at the moment I can not buy anything more if not selling something......The only positive thing about this is that one is effectively prevented from spending too much money about the hobby!!!

Ciao to everybody!

Marco

fantomark · 09-03-2007, 01:08 PM

WHOOPS !

Sorry about confusion in the messages!
Ciao!

Marco

burton · 09-03-2007, 02:03 PM

"NP mark , where the P and the N have one "leg" in common".
Your description describes the proof mark(s) commonly used in Austria.

There is usually found another smaller letter below the "P" that identifies the specific proof facility either "v" for Vienna, or "f" for Ferlach.

fantomark · 09-04-2007, 03:29 AM

Thanks, Richard!!

...So that would imply that at some stage the gun was exported to Austria, possibly afterthe war, then!?

As to the VOH mark, I got a suggestion from the wife of a friend of mine.
She does not know anything about Lugers, but she is German , born in East Berlin.
When I told the lady that we know about VOPO Lugers , where VOPO stands for Volks Polizei, she suggested that VOH may well stand for Volks Heer (ie: The People's Army, in Post WWII Eastern Germany).
This would make sense to me....what do you think?

Thanks again foy your help with the NP mark.

Ciao!

Marco

Lugerdoc · 09-04-2007, 10:48 AM

Marco, VOH might also be a poorly struck "VONO" who was reworking lugers during and after WW2. Or it may just be the initials of the smith that altered this luger to a 9x21 Caliber. TH

fantomark · 09-04-2007, 11:55 AM

Thanks, Doc.
This VOH mark is really well struck so it is perhaps the initials of the gunsmith altering the calibre, if Volks Heer does not make sense.
Incidentally, this P08 really works like clockwork in spite of its age, and it is in such a nice condition (all matching - apart from magazine -, etc

that's really a pity it had to be altered from its original 9 Para specs to comply with regulations...I somettimes think we really live in a strange country!

On a separate subject, I have at last found a good magazne for my other P08 (a 1918 DWM, originally in 9 para, but converted to 7.65 para to comply with previous, older Italian firearms regulations forbidding ANY 9MM guns to civilians).
I tried a "Dry run" and wth the new Magazine the toggle remains open at last! .

I have cleaned and lubricated the gun thorougly (by the way what do you reccommend for lubrication of sliding parts: GUN OIL, VASELINE, or GRAPHITE GUN GREASE?).
I will now will try it again at the range with standard FIOCCHI 7.65, and see how it goes. If still it will not work properly I will try replacing of mainspring with a 7.65 spring (it seems that when the gun was converted the original 9mm type spring was left in place by the gunsmith!!)
What do you think about it?

Thanks again for your help and all the best from Italy!!!

Ciao!

Marco

Steinar · 09-04-2007, 04:24 PM

Marco, with the 1918 DWM, I would suggest trying all the P08 magazines you have and try them one by one. If that don't help, try the borrowing the firing pin spring from your other Luger.. and from there go to purchasing a new mainspring. It is not that uncommon that a Luger don't work 100%, especially if it has been converted.. With some work, I think you will have the old warrior back in action again

As to oil, I just use regular gun oil on the moving parts..

Btw. I will fly to MXP airport Milano 10th of september and back again in the evening same day. When there is no time for sightseeing, I sometimes ask the taxi take for a detour if there is anything particular to see.. suggestions?

fantomark · 09-05-2007, 04:48 AM

THANKS RICHARD!

....you are 100% correct.
I examined the gun and the mark is clearly NPv - so it's Vienna!

The VOH stil remains a mistery .
LUGERDOC suggested it might be a poorly struck "VONO" who was reworking lugers during and after WW2. Or that it may just be the initials of the smith that altered this luger to a 9x21 Caliber.

I doublechecked and I found that the VOH is really neatly struck so it can't be VONO.
Also no one here in Italy seem to know about a gunsmith with VOH as its intitials (in fact over here we virtually have no Italian names/surnames starting with an H....
As I said I thought it could stand for VOlks Heer (ie: People's Army In Eastern Germany, like VOPO stand for VOlks POlizei, but I may be wrong of course....

fantomark · 09-05-2007, 04:49 AM

HI , Steinar!

I have sent you a private mesage with suggestions, etc . about trip to Milan.
It would be really nice if we could meet.

Cheers.

Marco

09-03-2007, 10:41 AM	#1
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	MY NEW LUGER P08 (help with markings!) Ciao to all the Forum Luger Experts!! Eventually I got myself a new luger! I did not manage to get the HK, sice someone else arrived before... In any case I am quite pleased with what I got. It is a 9mm 1921 DWM (all matching apart from magazine, which has a metal bottom plug instead of the correct brown wood) Condition is very nice overall including walnut grips & metal parts (I will post photos when I get myself a decent digital camera), with still a good portion of strawing. Barrel is in superb condition, showing virtually no signs of use. The best thing is that works like a marvel, and it's very accurate too!! I took it to the range on Sunday firing 100 rounds (SELLIER, MFS, and DYNAMIT NOBEL) with not one sigle problem! The has German proof marks, that thanks to the info on the Forum Website I have been able to identify. These include the German Eagle with Swastika and an eagle with 63 below it. In adition, however, there are a couple of markings that I have not been able to trace: One is the inscription in capital letters: VOH and the other is an NP mark , where the P and the N have one "leg" in common....Hope I can make myself understood!! Can anybody help? Thanks and Ciao to Everybody!!

09-03-2007, 02:03 PM	#4
burton User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Central AZ Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"NP mark , where the P and the N have one "leg" in common". Your description describes the proof mark(s) commonly used in Austria. There is usually found another smaller letter below the "P" that identifies the specific proof facility either "v" for Vienna, or "f" for Ferlach. __________________ RICHARD

09-04-2007, 10:48 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Marco, VOH might also be a poorly struck "VONO" who was reworking lugers during and after WW2. Or it may just be the initials of the smith that altered this luger to a 9x21 Caliber. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-04-2007, 04:24 PM	#8
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Marco, with the 1918 DWM, I would suggest trying all the P08 magazines you have and try them one by one. If that don't help, try the borrowing the firing pin spring from your other Luger.. and from there go to purchasing a new mainspring. It is not that uncommon that a Luger don't work 100%, especially if it has been converted.. With some work, I think you will have the old warrior back in action again As to oil, I just use regular gun oil on the moving parts.. Btw. I will fly to MXP airport Milano 10th of september and back again in the evening same day. When there is no time for sightseeing, I sometimes ask the taxi take for a detour if there is anything particular to see.. suggestions? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-03-2007, 01:04 PM	#2
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ciao! here is the explanation! In fact the guy informing that the 9mm Para is forbidden in Italy was me (starting the thread, I mean, and then setting off a brisk debate!...) in a previous post. In short situation is this. 9mm PARA is currently forbidden in Italy for commercial sales/civilian use of BOTH firearms and ammo. All firearms which were originally 9mm PARABELUM , before going on the civilian market MUST be converted as per the following 2 options: A) - retaining the 9mm caliber , but modified to accept 9x21 ammo (like the Luger I am now talking about) B) - having the gun sleeved in order to use 7.65 PARA ammo (in fact my other P08 - a 1918 DWM - is a 7.65 PARA, who in its "previous life was a 9mm PARA. Incidentally I have been told that until 15-20 years ago option B was the only one legally allowed, so only relatively recently we in Italy have been allowed civilian use of the 9mm calibre. As to Lugers, clearly either modifications will results in a decrease Ciao to all the Forum Luger Experts!! Eventually I got myself a new luger! I did not manage to get the HK, sice someone else arrived before... In any case I am quite pleased with what I got. It is a 9mm 1921 DWM (all matching apart from magazine, which has a metal bottom plug instead of the correct brown wood) Condition is very nice overall including walnut grips & metal parts (I will post photos when I get myself a decent digital camera), with still a good portion of strawing. Barrel is in superb condition, showing virtually no signs of use. The best thing is that works like a marvel, and it's very accurate too!! I took it to the range on Sunday firing 100 rounds (SELLIER, MFS, and DYNAMIT NOBEL) with not one sigle problem! The has German proof marks, that thanks to the info on the Forum Website I have been able to identify. These include the German Eagle with Swastika and an eagle with 63 below it. In adition, however, there are a couple of markings that I have not been able to trace: One is the inscription in capital letters: VOH and the other is an NP mark , where the P and the N have one "leg" in common....Hope I can make myself understood!! Can anybody help? Thanks and Ciao to Everybody!! Ciao! Yes, It was probably me starting the debate about Italian regulations in a previous post! Please let me clarify: 9mm PARABELLUM is still forbidden for commercial sales / civilian use of both firearms and Ammo (ie: its use is only restricted to the Army and Law Enforcement Units). This situation has led to 2 options as far as 9 para Lugers are concerned: A) - guns modified to accept 9X21 ammo (like the P08 I am now talking about) B) - guns modified by sleeving of barrel in order to fire the 7.65 para ammo (like my other Luger, a 1918 DWM , thet in its "previous life" was also a 9 para). - Incidentally, recently, I was informed that until aprox. 15 years ago ALL 9mm ammo was forbidden for civilian use! As things stands, in either case the value of one's weapon is somewhat decreased anyway, and, a result, there are now 2 different schools of thougts: There are collectors who mantain (a minority in fact) that option 2 is the best (or the lesser evil!) since still allows use of an ammo that was specifically devised for the Luger pistol. On the other hand, qther collectors (perhaps the majority) believe that keeping the original calibre is a preferable option, even if one will end up firing a type of ammo that was never originally fired in any Lugers. One other Italian peculiarty is that we are only allowed to own 3 "common" (ie: non sporting and post 1890) firearms, (unless you manage to obtain a special collector's licence - but then you would not be allowed to fire the weapons you have in the collectors list, I believe). On top of the 3 common weapons (in practice all modern pistols), we are allowed to keep 6 Sporting weapons (ie weapons listed in the Official Firearms Catalogue as firearms devised for use as competition weapons) and 8 antique (ie pre 1890) guns. So over here one must be particularly careful about what one buys. For example, in addition to the 2 Lugers I also have a WWII Webley, so at the moment I can not buy anything more if not selling something......The only positive thing about this is that one is effectively prevented from spending too much money about the hobby!!! Ciao to everybody! Marco

09-03-2007, 01:08 PM	#3
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WHOOPS ! Sorry about confusion in the messages! Ciao! Marco

09-04-2007, 03:29 AM	#5
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Richard!! ...So that would imply that at some stage the gun was exported to Austria, possibly afterthe war, then!? As to the VOH mark, I got a suggestion from the wife of a friend of mine. She does not know anything about Lugers, but she is German , born in East Berlin. When I told the lady that we know about VOPO Lugers , where VOPO stands for Volks Polizei, she suggested that VOH may well stand for Volks Heer (ie: The People's Army, in Post WWII Eastern Germany). This would make sense to me....what do you think? Thanks again foy your help with the NP mark. Ciao! Marco

09-04-2007, 11:55 AM	#7
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Doc. This VOH mark is really well struck so it is perhaps the initials of the gunsmith altering the calibre, if Volks Heer does not make sense. Incidentally, this P08 really works like clockwork in spite of its age, and it is in such a nice condition (all matching - apart from magazine -, etc that's really a pity it had to be altered from its original 9 Para specs to comply with regulations...I somettimes think we really live in a strange country! On a separate subject, I have at last found a good magazne for my other P08 (a 1918 DWM, originally in 9 para, but converted to 7.65 para to comply with previous, older Italian firearms regulations forbidding ANY 9MM guns to civilians). I tried a "Dry run" and wth the new Magazine the toggle remains open at last! . I have cleaned and lubricated the gun thorougly (by the way what do you reccommend for lubrication of sliding parts: GUN OIL, VASELINE, or GRAPHITE GUN GREASE?). I will now will try it again at the range with standard FIOCCHI 7.65, and see how it goes. If still it will not work properly I will try replacing of mainspring with a 7.65 spring (it seems that when the gun was converted the original 9mm type spring was left in place by the gunsmith!!) What do you think about it? Thanks again for your help and all the best from Italy!!! Ciao! Marco

09-05-2007, 04:48 AM	#9
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	THANKS RICHARD! ....you are 100% correct. I examined the gun and the mark is clearly NPv - so it's Vienna! The VOH stil remains a mistery . LUGERDOC suggested it might be a poorly struck "VONO" who was reworking lugers during and after WW2. Or that it may just be the initials of the smith that altered this luger to a 9x21 Caliber. I doublechecked and I found that the VOH is really neatly struck so it can't be VONO. Also no one here in Italy seem to know about a gunsmith with VOH as its intitials (in fact over here we virtually have no Italian names/surnames starting with an H.... As I said I thought it could stand for VOlks Heer (ie: People's Army In Eastern Germany, like VOPO stand for VOlks POlizei, but I may be wrong of course....

09-05-2007, 04:49 AM	#10
fantomark User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: milano, italy Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	HI , Steinar! I have sent you a private mesage with suggestions, etc . about trip to Milan. It would be really nice if we could meet. Cheers. Marco