1918 Dwm

[DaveL]

Hi Guys,
I've been gun collecting for 30+ years now and I finally got my first Luger yesterday after wanting one for years. YEA!! It's a 1918 (front top of frame) DWM (center of toggle) serial # 9164. It has all matching numbers (64) except the sideplate, which is 66. On the under side of the barrel is the serial number and under that is what looks like a small cursive i and under that is 8.83. On the very front of the frame is the serial number and what looks like another cursive small i under it. At the rear left side of the frame, under the safety is written GESICHERT. On the right front of the frame are 4 proof or inspectors marks. The first is a crown over what looks like a whale swimming downward. The second and third ones are a crown over what looks like a fancy S or 8. The forth one looks like a lobster. It has a lanyard loop at the rear of the frame and a slot for the rifle stock on the backstrap. It is missing the grips (screws are there) and the mag. The entire gun is blued with no straw colors. If it's been reblued, the guy who did it did a good job and didn't run the numbers with his buffer. Even the proof marks are crisp and clear and there are visible machining marks in various places. There are some other marks that would be under the grips at the bottom of the frame. Left side looks like a check mark followed by what looks like a roman numeral 9 (IX) and the right side it looks like a not fully struck K. I'll try to get some pics when I get new batteries for my camera.
My questions are: (I have lots more questions but I'll try not to ask too many right now)
The most important question I have is, what caliber is it, 9mm or 30 Luger? (There is no caliber designation on the pistol anywhere)
Was it reblued?
When was it made?
Is it civilian or military?
Was the sideplate replaced?
What are the chances of finding original grips and an original mag and what can I expect to pay for them? (GunParts has aftermarket but I would like to have originals)
Speaking of the grips, did it originally have walnut, plastic, checkered or flat grips?
Did the mag have wood or metal or something else for the bottom piece?
TIA for any info.
Dave L

[Edward Tinker]

Dave, i am too tired to think properly, but WELCOME to the forum!



ed

[lugerholsterrepair]

Dave, Welcome and congratulations!

The most important question I have is, what caliber is it, 9mm or 30 Luger? (There is no caliber designation on the pistol anywhere)Make sure the pistol is unloaded!!!
Likely 9MM. Drop a pencil down the barrel erasure first. If it will go into the barrel it is 9MM. Pull the trigger..The fireing pin should shoot the pencil out. This tells you it is working and will fire a cartridge.

Was it reblued? Yes. On the 1918 DWM various parts were strawed giving them a pleasing gold color, Trigger, take down lever, mag release etc.


When was it made? 1918 dates of manufacture were placed over the chamber.
Is it civilian or military? Military, military had the date over the chamber..others did not.

Was the sideplate replaced? Yes, It should have the last two digits as the rest of the parts.


What are the chances of finding original grips and an original mag ?
Good, look on Ebay for grips..$85 bucks or so. Might consider repros if you are going to shoot it. Buy a Mec Gar magazine at first if you are a shooter. It Will save you agravation later at the range. $30 for a repro, $100-125 should get you a beater wood bottom which the pistol had originally. $200++ for a nice wood bottom nickled body.

and what can I expect to pay for them? (GunParts has aftermarket but I would like to have originals)
Speaking of the grips, did it originally have walnut, plastic, checkered or flat grips?
The pistol was issued with checkered walnut numbered to the pistol.

Did the mag have wood or metal or something else for the bottom piece? Wood.
Jerry Burney

[Don M]

Dave,

The 8,83 stamped on the barrel confirms it is 9 mm. This is the land-to-land measurement in mm.

[DaveL]

Thanks guys for the great info and the quick response!

I guess I'm still a little confused. Jerry, in answer to my question "When was it made"? you said: "1918 dates of manufacture were placed over the chamber". Does that mean this pistol was made in 1918? I don't see any other markings around the chamber other than the 1918 date that I thought was a model designation.
Thanks for the heads up on Mec Gar magazines. Considering that it's been reblued, I'll probably go with aftermarket parts.
Don M, The caliber designation on the bottom of the barrel is interesting. I've never heard of the caliber being measured from land to land. Thank you, it's good to know for sure it's a 9mm.
A few more questions if you guys don't mind.
1)Anyone know if the mags GunParts are selling, with the plastic bottoms, are any good?
2)What do the proof or inspectors marks on the right side tell you?
3)Do these pistols shoot lead bullets good or should I stick with FMJ's?
4)Considering that it has been reblued and will have aftermarket grips and mag, what is the ballpark value? I'm not going to sell it, I'm looking forward to shooting and admiring it for sometime to come. I'm just interested in how much equity I gained for my collection. I know I "stole it" at $100 but the FFL holder I bought it from considered it a "parts gun" and I gave him what he was asking for it.
I love to visit little backroom gun shops in the back country here in Vermont. You just never know what you will walk out with. I bought a trapdoor Springfield a few years ago from the same guy that has Universal Studios stamped in big bold letters on the barrel for $100. Kind of ruined the collectors value but I thought it was an interesting piece.
TIA
Dave L

[DaveL]

Thanks for the reply Tacfoley,
That clears up the manufacturing date for me. Duh, I think that's what Jerry was trying to tell me, but I just had a brain cramp when I read his post. So, if none or very few (we'll wait for the thunderous trampling of posters on this :-) ) P08's were in 30 Luger, then where did the caliber designation 30 Luger come from? Is it another American invention? Or is it a caliber the Germans used for another arm like the Smitzer? (probably spelled wrong, sorry)
DaveL

[RBorecky]

AAhhhmmm,, the Luger was designed for Swiss Testing and US in the beginning. 1900 American Eagle so it was not a made up American thing. Also he stated GERMAN P08's were all 9mm not all P08's. Heck Luger had a office in the U.S.

Just clarifying a few things there. Rick B

[Dwight Gruber]

Rick,

Just to clarify things a bit more for everyone...

DWM, under the guidance of designer Georg Luger, developed the original 1900 Parabellum, in cal. 7,65mm Parabellum, for the Swiss army. The Swiss acceptance of the firearm in May, 1900 fixed the design of the pistol.

The first American Eagle was applied to the chamber of a Parabellum pistol around serial number 700, but the American Eagle promotional series started with serial number 2002. This was probably late in 1900, but there is no way to know for sure.

The U.S. Army order for Parabellums to test was delivered in October 1901. These pistols were delivered from a successful and thriving commercial production line of more than 6,000 pistols at the time.

The 9mm Parabellum cartridge was under development as early as 1902. It was based on a shortened 7,65mm Borchardt case. The 1906 "New Model" Parabellum was offered in both 7,65mm and 9mm Parabellum calibers. It (and the 1900 "Old Model" which preceded it) had thriving commercial sales in Germany, the US, and South America.

Although Georg Luger appeared several times in the U.S. to demonstrate his pistol, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken's "office" in the U.S. was a business operated by Hans Tauscher, DWM's exclusive representitive.

In the U.S. the Pistole Parabellum was commonly known as the Luger, after its developer. Also in the U.S. (as well as other parts of the world) the 7,65mm cartridge proved to be the much more popular of the two. In the U.S., a country whose measurerment system was not (and is not, still) metric, the cartridge became known as cal. .30 Luger.

The Luger name and the caliber are distinctively American; Parabellum and 7,65mm are the recognized designations everywhere else.

In 1908 the German Army accepted a modified version of the Parabellum pistol as the Pistole 1908, designated as P-08. Exclusively in 9mm, this official designation of the military pistol remained through the end of WWII. In Europe and elswhere the toggle-action, Georg Luger-designed pistol is often conventionally, although sometimes erroneously, referred to as the P-08--in the same manner that in the U.S. the pistol is almost universally, though equally erroneously, known as the Luger.

In 1922 the A.F. Stoeger Corp. in New York became the exclusive agent for BKIW (formerly DWM) and sole U.S. importer of the Parabellum pistol, and in 1929 registererd the name "Luger" as their trademark. Many pistols officially imported after that time were marked "Genuine Luger". Stoeger also caused manufacture of a .22 cal. pistol, operating with a toggle but with no other design characteristics of the Parabellum pistol, also stamped with the name "Genuine Luger".

--Dwight

[DaveL]

WOW Dwight,
That was better than reading the discription in Guns of The World! Thanks for the clarification.
DaveL
P.S. Any other ideas on my other questions? please?

[Dwight Gruber]

Does that mean this pistol was made in 1918? I don't see any other markings around the chamber other than the 1918 date that I thought was a model designation.

Military P-08 were stamped with their date of manufacture over the chamber. This was required by the Army in WWI, and by the Heers Waffenamt (WaA, Military Weapons Office) thereafter.

The caliber designation on the bottom of the barrel is interesting. I've never heard of the caliber being measured from land to land. Thank you, it's good to know for sure it's a 9mm.

The 8,83 caliber measurement under the barrel was another Army requirement. 9mm P-08 were allowed a munufacturing tolerance between 8.82mm-8.86mm, and after test firing the land-to-land distance had to be measured and stamped under the barrel to certify compliance.

1)Anyone know if the mags GunParts are selling, with the plastic bottoms, are any good?

Aftermarket magazines which are commonly found these days are Mec-Gar and KKK. They both have plastic bottoms. The Triple-K magazines have a decent reputation, but only hold 7 rounds. Call Gun Parts and find out, and if it is not one of these don't bother.

Actually, if you do this exercise, please let us know.

2)What do the proof or inspectors marks on the right side tell you?

The P-08 underwent constant test and measurement during manufacture. The Army test stamps and proofs on the right side of the gun were the major and final certification marks. The Crown-over-letter stamps were the individual hallmarks of the responsible inspectors, and the Eagle was the stamp of the proofing office.

The rearmost stamp was the first applied, and certified that the receiver had been hardened to the specified tolerance and that the date had been stamped on top of the receiver.

After the pistol had been assembled it was inspected and passed with the c/Letter next to the hardness stamp. It then went to power proof, where it was tested with two over-pressure proof caartridges. On passing this the receiver, barrel, and breechblock were stamped with the Imperial Eagle proof stamp.

From there the pistol went to shooting-in, and was returned for final inspection. If it passed this it was given the third--rightmost--c/Letter stamp, which certified its acceptance by the Army.

3)Do these pistols shoot lead bullets good or should I stick with FMJ's?

Apt question. 9mm P-08 hate soft-nose bullets--it is almost always a guarantee for feed jamming. Same with hollow points.

4)Considering that it has been reblued and will have aftermarket grips and mag, what is the ballpark value? I'm not going to sell it, I'm looking forward to shooting and admiring it for sometime to come. I'm just interested in how much equity I gained for my collection. I know I "stole it" at $100 but the FFL holder I bought it from considered it a "parts gun" and I gave him what he was asking for it.

A functioning Luger as you describe is fairly valued in the $500 range. Lugers were extensively hand-finished and individually tuned to assure their function. This is the reason for serial numbering, and the practical reason for maintaining matching parts. A "parts Luger" is prone to malfunction, and worth correspondingly less if they do not function properly.

--Dwight

[DaveL]

Wow again Dwight!
That took care of all of my questions very nicely. Thank you! Dwight, it's knowledgeable and willing guys like you that makes forums like this work. Thanks again for being patient and taking the time to respond to a new guy with new guy questions that have probably been asked a thousand times before. And thanks to you other guys who responded also.
Dave