Just wondering????????

Hugh · 09-21-2007, 08:39 PM

Were the rear toggles for the Artillery Model Lugers manufactured without the rear sight, or were regular toggles used and had the rear sight ground off for use on the Artillery Model?

LugerVern · 09-22-2007, 02:13 PM

I donÃ¢??t know the answer, we should be able to look at the traits of each and tell if they came from the same basic mold. I would look at the under side for differences.

Vern

G.T. · 09-22-2007, 05:39 PM

I would have to believe that they were run special, and never ever intended to have a rear sight machined on them. They may have used the same forging, but the sight area would be milled off as if it were being cleaned up like any other part.. They may have even used a seperate forging as they would have looked upon this tiny extra bit of machining as a waste when taken times several thousand... These guys didn't waste anything, including time! They were fast and good, and never stopped getting better!... they probably spent more time looking for effective shortcuts then they did making the parts in the first place... "The hard stuff they did right away, the impossible took a little longer!" I believe this would describe the machining situation at that time, as I understand it... Best to all, til...lat'r....GT

G.T. · 09-22-2007, 05:55 PM

In my hometown of Aberdeen South Dakota, there was (still is?) a company called K.O.Lee Manufacturing.? Anyway, during the war years they made tools for making tools... Surface grinders, cutting tools, etc. A gentleman who was a customer of mine in his latter years, was the foreman of the machining shop during the war years. One particular statement of his that I remember pretty well was: "We had the second highest clearance for procuring material in the country, we were just under the manhattan project for materials acquisition." Machine shops were pretty important! As was the items they churned out... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

LugerVern · 09-23-2007, 12:24 PM

Yes, they were machined from solid forgings made to the approximate shape, and this is what I am talking about, if the rear sight was never to be installed, the solid forging may have been different also and this may leave signs that we can determine the answer to this question.

Vern

LugerVern · 09-23-2007, 07:19 PM

Tac

We are not talking about the same thing.

All I am really saying is that there might be machining differences between the two toggles that may help answer this question.

Vern

Big Norm · 09-30-2007, 11:06 PM

Tac,
are we talking about the same Walters book? I am looking at "The Luger Book" Pg 134 and I don't see any anything there that has anything specific to do with an artillery. The book that I am looking at is a black paper back with the artillery on the front. The page 134 has a 1906 with 'Gouv.Kiau.8' on the straps in the lower left hand corner of that page.

John Walters book 'The Luger Story' has a discussion about proof and inspectors marks on page 134.
Big Norm

Dwight Gruber · 10-01-2007, 02:49 AM

It's page 134 of Luger, 1977.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 10-01-2007, 09:03 AM

Big Norm, It's a different J.Walter book. Basically the same info, but arranged chronologically, rather than alphabetically. TH

Big Norm · 10-01-2007, 02:58 PM

Thanks guys. My library runneth over and the book that Tak referred to is one of those that I don't got. Tak is pretty good at relaying information so I thought that I would ask the question.
Big Norm

09-21-2007, 08:39 PM	#1
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Just wondering???????? Were the rear toggles for the Artillery Model Lugers manufactured without the rear sight, or were regular toggles used and had the rear sight ground off for use on the Artillery Model? __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-22-2007, 05:39 PM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	rear toggle I would have to believe that they were run special, and never ever intended to have a rear sight machined on them. They may have used the same forging, but the sight area would be milled off as if it were being cleaned up like any other part.. They may have even used a seperate forging as they would have looked upon this tiny extra bit of machining as a waste when taken times several thousand... These guys didn't waste anything, including time! They were fast and good, and never stopped getting better!... they probably spent more time looking for effective shortcuts then they did making the parts in the first place... "The hard stuff they did right away, the impossible took a little longer!" I believe this would describe the machining situation at that time, as I understand it... Best to all, til...lat'r....GT

09-22-2007, 05:55 PM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	interesting side note... In my hometown of Aberdeen South Dakota, there was (still is?) a company called K.O.Lee Manufacturing.? Anyway, during the war years they made tools for making tools... Surface grinders, cutting tools, etc. A gentleman who was a customer of mine in his latter years, was the foreman of the machining shop during the war years. One particular statement of his that I remember pretty well was: "We had the second highest clearance for procuring material in the country, we were just under the manhattan project for materials acquisition." Machine shops were pretty important! As was the items they churned out... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

10-01-2007, 09:03 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Big Norm, It's a different J.Walter book. Basically the same info, but arranged chronologically, rather than alphabetically. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-22-2007, 02:13 PM	#2
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	I donÃ¢??t know the answer, we should be able to look at the traits of each and tell if they came from the same basic mold. I would look at the under side for differences. Vern

09-23-2007, 12:24 PM	#5
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Yes, they were machined from solid forgings made to the approximate shape, and this is what I am talking about, if the rear sight was never to be installed, the solid forging may have been different also and this may leave signs that we can determine the answer to this question. Vern

09-23-2007, 07:19 PM	#6
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Tac We are not talking about the same thing. All I am really saying is that there might be machining differences between the two toggles that may help answer this question. Vern

09-30-2007, 11:06 PM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tac, are we talking about the same Walters book? I am looking at "The Luger Book" Pg 134 and I don't see any anything there that has anything specific to do with an artillery. The book that I am looking at is a black paper back with the artillery on the front. The page 134 has a 1906 with 'Gouv.Kiau.8' on the straps in the lower left hand corner of that page. John Walters book 'The Luger Story' has a discussion about proof and inspectors marks on page 134. Big Norm

10-01-2007, 02:49 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	It's page 134 of Luger, 1977. --Dwight

10-01-2007, 02:58 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks guys. My library runneth over and the book that Tak referred to is one of those that I don't got. Tak is pretty good at relaying information so I thought that I would ask the question. Big Norm