06 W+F with a few questions....

biffj · 03-10-2009, 03:26 AM

I'm new to the forum and to the Swiss lugers. Used to collect artilleries and brooms in the 70's and 80's.
I picked up a nice 06 Bern and noticed a number of differences between it and German produced guns. Lack of proofing is one big difference. Another is that some of the parts have the last 3 numbers stamped on them rather than 2 as I'm more familiar with. I see from some of the other posts that this is not the case with all the 06 Bern guns but also wonder if this is not correct. The rear toggle link has only the last 2 numbers as does the mag bottom and grips but the sideplate, toggle link, breech, and trigger have the last 3. The firing pin, hold-open and take down lever are not numbered. . The serial is in the 31 thousand range and the pistol came in a 31 dated Bern marked holster that looks more like what I'd thought was an 06/29 holster. There is a spare mag but its a plastic bottom with the script P stamped on the back of the sheetmetal body. A swiss mag but not what I'd expect with this model. Bore is bright and shiney. There is some wear in places you'd expect it though its not bad. I can't tell if its been reblued as I'm not familiar enough with the model. I have noted though that the toggle cam area of the frame is a bit on the purplish side which either indicates its been hardened in that area or the bluing was redone with too much heat or expiring salts. Its not bad though and if I didn't do a lot of repair and refinishing of machineguns I'd probably not have noticed. The frame rails look like the blue is worn off in the pictures but its only my poor photo skills and glare. There is some blue worn through but only on some of the corners.
Any comments or info is appreciated. I didn't buy the gun expecting perfection or something extraordinary. I just needed a nice Swiss built Luger to go with the other Swiss firearms. I like the look of the grips with the border too....

Thanks
Biff

panda · 04-11-2009, 06:55 PM

Indeed. The holster belongs to a 6/29 as well as the mag with the plastic bottom.

Guisan · 04-12-2009, 01:18 PM

Well Panda how come then that the leather has a '31 year stamp and this 06/24 pistol has a 1931 serial ?
I more think this to be one of the first holsters in 06/29 style as they started producing the pistols in 1933.
I would like to see those holster stampings more clear if possible.

Guisan.

panda · 04-12-2009, 03:27 PM

Well interesting point.

Mr. Rutsch (p. 246-7) though mentions that the P29 has come into existence in 1928. It underwent various tests and was accepted for the army in 1929. Which means that since 1929, it was known that the P29, with all its accessories, would be handed out to the member of the Swiss army.

As far as I know, holsters were not manufactured by W+F but by various saddlers throughout the country. (We remember the discussions about the Paillard "P"- magazines of the P29.) Beyond the army supply issue, it was meant to promote/help local industries in various areas of the country, in particular in industrially less favored areas (for example in the mountains - this policy was still in force for certain pieces of clothing in the 80ies and 90ies). To maintain a certain level of State demand, which was anything but a marginal source of income for these small undertakings, it would therefore have made perfect sense, especially given the economic hard times left by the 29 crash, to order the holsters in advance. In any case, they would be needed sooner or later. BTW, we experience the same kind of politics today when public investment programs are carried out a little earlier than initially planned to reduce the pain of the crisis (so they think).

Moreover, I can find neither in Rutsch (p. 242-44) nor in Bobba (p. 195) any mention that the P06 would have been equipped with a holster of the P29 type.

My guess is therefore that before they started the production of the P29, they ordered de P29 holsters at the saddlers that had a shortage of work.

Guisan · 04-12-2009, 03:50 PM

Well don't think that to be so, the Parabellum holsters changed their appearances separate from the pistol model changes and I think this could be one of them.
A close-up of that holster stamp is something I would like to see first.

Guisan.

panda · 04-12-2009, 04:19 PM

Do you have a reference for this kind of holster associated with a P1906 as an ordinance set?

Personnally, I don't.

Guisan · 04-12-2009, 04:46 PM

No I did not say I have, I may need to dig through a pile of 06/29 holsters first to find one but a find of another sample of these pre-06/29 holsters would not surprise me, that is what I mean.
Fact is that 00 holsters got modified with additional mag-pouches and so were 06 and the 06/24 ones till they fitted these standard with later holsters so there was kind of a developing going on....

Look at the leather imprint in the above pics, that grip section is not one of just a few days before, a 06/29 would show a straight grip.
Another thing is that the holster seems to be in the same overall condition as the pistol, it is not some later replacement one.

Guisan.

panda · 04-12-2009, 05:24 PM

As I said, it does not surprise me that they started ordering the holster before manufacturing the P29 on large scale. However, I'd be surprised if those holsters were intended to be distributed with new P06 despite the fact that this has not been reported(?). (They were though most likely used as a substitution holster if a P06 holster got lost or unrepairably damaged). As mentioned above, the manufacturing of the holsters and of the pistols most likely followed different channels to serve different economic objectives.

Obviously, the W+F was not as deeply affected by the economic crisis as the private saddlers under contract with the state for supplying holsters.

Guisan · 04-12-2009, 05:59 PM

Many thoughts little answers, it's a matter of interpreting the facts you get, not all what is written is the ultimate truth....
A hobby gets way more interesting by finding new answers.

Guisan.

biffj · 04-13-2009, 12:15 PM

I'll get some good pics of the markings on the holster this afternoon.....this thread sat for so long I'd quit checking it.

As for whether the pistol was issued with this holster or not thats anyones guess. I can easily see it being done and looking at any military in the world will show that "official" doctrine on material issue is seldom in step with reality. I believe the pistol was issued with this holster as the wear and "molding" of the leather to the pistol shows no other pistol ever being in this holster long enough to create any other patterns. There is a definate imprint of the grips and metal in the holster both inside and out. The date of the holster being the same as the pistol makes it very possible to have been issed this way as well. In looking at the Swiss tendancy to use everything as long as its useful it also makes one think that despite any intent to issue this style with the
29's they would have issued them with whatever was currently being handed out at the time and the 29's weren't being issued yet.

Just my opinions of course. Thanks for the help Frank

Biff

Guisan · 04-13-2009, 04:41 PM

Looking forward to the pics, check also if there is a year stamp on the strap.

Guisan.

biffj · 04-15-2009, 01:54 AM

OK,
Here are a few pics. No date on the strap just a maker which I can't read well. The stamp on the holster is a bit worn so I put two pics from different angles in to hopefully make it easier to see.

Hope that will help a little

Biff

Guisan · 04-15-2009, 05:02 PM

Hmm, thanks for the pics but it's dang hard to see 31 into those, it seems that the first number is deeper as the second and most of the times it's the other way round. I don't see another year either but I'm not sure now.

Guisan.

biffj · 04-15-2009, 11:26 PM

It does appear that the holster was definitely carried so there is some wear on the back which smooths out the stamping. That makes it a bit tough to photgraph, that and my poor ability with the camera and lighting. Thats why I tried to get a couple angles. In real life the 31 is pretty clear....
Biff

Guisan · 04-26-2009, 02:30 PM

It still does not explain why the first number of that year is deeper and more sharp as the second one, did they try to hide another number ?

Guisan.

biffj · 06-23-2009, 09:26 PM

OK Frank,
Here are a couple more pictures taken in different light and from different angles to hopefully show that the 1 is actually a 1 and not something else. The problem is the wear which has shined up the leather to the point that it won't take good pictures without bad glare. In real life the one is pretty clear, I just can't seem to get a good picture.

Hope this clarify's.

Biff

Guisan · 08-02-2009, 06:01 PM

Well it looks to me that somebody has tried to cover-up something with that first "3" stamp, for me it would have been a reason to pass that holster, style of that first stamp is different and so is the size.

Guisan.

biffj · 08-03-2009, 04:08 AM

If you could only see it in person I think you'd believe differently because its not offsized or different style, its just worn where it sat against something and its not worn evenly. I'm a crappy photographer and I don't see any way of getting a picture that would show things right....In any case I'm happy with it as it is.
Biff

Guisan · 08-03-2009, 07:53 PM

Well happy with it the way it is is what collecting is about, I only express what I think when I see these pics, I'm no newbie and learned in the "field" during the past 40 or so years. It does not make me the perfect judge but it sure helped some !

Enjoy it as what you think it is, it might be the truth...

Guisan.

biffj · 08-03-2009, 10:18 PM

I do appreciate your help, advice and input Frank so please don't think I'm bitching. You could be 100% correct that its been remarked but I can't see it from here. I can see it in the pictures though as they look much different than when holding the holster in my hand.....
I know the importer pretty well and he tells me he got it from the son of the gent it was issued to but I've been around long enough to know that "he said" guarantees nothing....
Thanks
Biff

03-10-2009, 03:26 AM	#1
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	06 W+F with a few questions.... I'm new to the forum and to the Swiss lugers. Used to collect artilleries and brooms in the 70's and 80's. I picked up a nice 06 Bern and noticed a number of differences between it and German produced guns. Lack of proofing is one big difference. Another is that some of the parts have the last 3 numbers stamped on them rather than 2 as I'm more familiar with. I see from some of the other posts that this is not the case with all the 06 Bern guns but also wonder if this is not correct. The rear toggle link has only the last 2 numbers as does the mag bottom and grips but the sideplate, toggle link, breech, and trigger have the last 3. The firing pin, hold-open and take down lever are not numbered. . The serial is in the 31 thousand range and the pistol came in a 31 dated Bern marked holster that looks more like what I'd thought was an 06/29 holster. There is a spare mag but its a plastic bottom with the script P stamped on the back of the sheetmetal body. A swiss mag but not what I'd expect with this model. Bore is bright and shiney. There is some wear in places you'd expect it though its not bad. I can't tell if its been reblued as I'm not familiar enough with the model. I have noted though that the toggle cam area of the frame is a bit on the purplish side which either indicates its been hardened in that area or the bluing was redone with too much heat or expiring salts. Its not bad though and if I didn't do a lot of repair and refinishing of machineguns I'd probably not have noticed. The frame rails look like the blue is worn off in the pictures but its only my poor photo skills and glare. There is some blue worn through but only on some of the corners. Any comments or info is appreciated. I didn't buy the gun expecting perfection or something extraordinary. I just needed a nice Swiss built Luger to go with the other Swiss firearms. I like the look of the grips with the border too.... Thanks Biff Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

04-12-2009, 01:18 PM	#3
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Well Panda how come then that the leather has a '31 year stamp and this 06/24 pistol has a 1931 serial ? I more think this to be one of the first holsters in 06/29 style as they started producing the pistols in 1933. I would like to see those holster stampings more clear if possible. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

04-12-2009, 03:50 PM	#5
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Well don't think that to be so, the Parabellum holsters changed their appearances separate from the pistol model changes and I think this could be one of them. A close-up of that holster stamp is something I would like to see first. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

04-12-2009, 04:46 PM	#7
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	No I did not say I have, I may need to dig through a pile of 06/29 holsters first to find one but a find of another sample of these pre-06/29 holsters would not surprise me, that is what I mean. Fact is that 00 holsters got modified with additional mag-pouches and so were 06 and the 06/24 ones till they fitted these standard with later holsters so there was kind of a developing going on.... Look at the leather imprint in the above pics, that grip section is not one of just a few days before, a 06/29 would show a straight grip. Another thing is that the holster seems to be in the same overall condition as the pistol, it is not some later replacement one. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

04-12-2009, 05:59 PM	#9
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Many thoughts little answers, it's a matter of interpreting the facts you get, not all what is written is the ultimate truth.... A hobby gets way more interesting by finding new answers. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

04-11-2009, 06:55 PM	#2
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Indeed. The holster belongs to a 6/29 as well as the mag with the plastic bottom.

04-12-2009, 03:27 PM	#4
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well interesting point. Mr. Rutsch (p. 246-7) though mentions that the P29 has come into existence in 1928. It underwent various tests and was accepted for the army in 1929. Which means that since 1929, it was known that the P29, with all its accessories, would be handed out to the member of the Swiss army. As far as I know, holsters were not manufactured by W+F but by various saddlers throughout the country. (We remember the discussions about the Paillard "P"- magazines of the P29.) Beyond the army supply issue, it was meant to promote/help local industries in various areas of the country, in particular in industrially less favored areas (for example in the mountains - this policy was still in force for certain pieces of clothing in the 80ies and 90ies). To maintain a certain level of State demand, which was anything but a marginal source of income for these small undertakings, it would therefore have made perfect sense, especially given the economic hard times left by the 29 crash, to order the holsters in advance. In any case, they would be needed sooner or later. BTW, we experience the same kind of politics today when public investment programs are carried out a little earlier than initially planned to reduce the pain of the crisis (so they think). Moreover, I can find neither in Rutsch (p. 242-44) nor in Bobba (p. 195) any mention that the P06 would have been equipped with a holster of the P29 type. My guess is therefore that before they started the production of the P29, they ordered de P29 holsters at the saddlers that had a shortage of work.

04-12-2009, 04:19 PM	#6
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Do you have a reference for this kind of holster associated with a P1906 as an ordinance set? Personnally, I don't.

04-12-2009, 05:24 PM	#8
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As I said, it does not surprise me that they started ordering the holster before manufacturing the P29 on large scale. However, I'd be surprised if those holsters were intended to be distributed with new P06 despite the fact that this has not been reported(?). (They were though most likely used as a substitution holster if a P06 holster got lost or unrepairably damaged). As mentioned above, the manufacturing of the holsters and of the pistols most likely followed different channels to serve different economic objectives. Obviously, the W+F was not as deeply affected by the economic crisis as the private saddlers under contract with the state for supplying holsters.

04-13-2009, 12:15 PM	#10
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	I'll get some good pics of the markings on the holster this afternoon.....this thread sat for so long I'd quit checking it. As for whether the pistol was issued with this holster or not thats anyones guess. I can easily see it being done and looking at any military in the world will show that "official" doctrine on material issue is seldom in step with reality. I believe the pistol was issued with this holster as the wear and "molding" of the leather to the pistol shows no other pistol ever being in this holster long enough to create any other patterns. There is a definate imprint of the grips and metal in the holster both inside and out. The date of the holster being the same as the pistol makes it very possible to have been issed this way as well. In looking at the Swiss tendancy to use everything as long as its useful it also makes one think that despite any intent to issue this style with the 29's they would have issued them with whatever was currently being handed out at the time and the 29's weren't being issued yet. Just my opinions of course. Thanks for the help Frank Biff

04-13-2009, 04:41 PM	#11
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Looking forward to the pics, check also if there is a year stamp on the strap. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

04-15-2009, 01:54 AM	#12
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	OK, Here are a few pics. No date on the strap just a maker which I can't read well. The stamp on the holster is a bit worn so I put two pics from different angles in to hopefully make it easier to see. Hope that will help a little Biff

04-15-2009, 05:02 PM	#13
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hmm, thanks for the pics but it's dang hard to see 31 into those, it seems that the first number is deeper as the second and most of the times it's the other way round. I don't see another year either but I'm not sure now. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

04-15-2009, 11:26 PM	#14
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	It does appear that the holster was definitely carried so there is some wear on the back which smooths out the stamping. That makes it a bit tough to photgraph, that and my poor ability with the camera and lighting. Thats why I tried to get a couple angles. In real life the 31 is pretty clear.... Biff

04-26-2009, 02:30 PM	#15
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	It still does not explain why the first number of that year is deeper and more sharp as the second one, did they try to hide another number ? Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

06-23-2009, 09:26 PM	#16
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	OK Frank, Here are a couple more pictures taken in different light and from different angles to hopefully show that the 1 is actually a 1 and not something else. The problem is the wear which has shined up the leather to the point that it won't take good pictures without bad glare. In real life the one is pretty clear, I just can't seem to get a good picture. Hope this clarify's. Biff Attached Thumbnails

08-02-2009, 06:01 PM	#17
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Well it looks to me that somebody has tried to cover-up something with that first "3" stamp, for me it would have been a reason to pass that holster, style of that first stamp is different and so is the size. Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

08-03-2009, 04:08 AM	#18
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	If you could only see it in person I think you'd believe differently because its not offsized or different style, its just worn where it sat against something and its not worn evenly. I'm a crappy photographer and I don't see any way of getting a picture that would show things right....In any case I'm happy with it as it is. Biff

08-03-2009, 07:53 PM	#19
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Well happy with it the way it is is what collecting is about, I only express what I think when I see these pics, I'm no newbie and learned in the "field" during the past 40 or so years. It does not make me the perfect judge but it sure helped some ! Enjoy it as what you think it is, it might be the truth... Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

08-03-2009, 10:18 PM	#20
biffj User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	I do appreciate your help, advice and input Frank so please don't think I'm bitching. You could be 100% correct that its been remarked but I can't see it from here. I can see it in the pictures though as they look much different than when holding the holster in my hand..... I know the importer pretty well and he tells me he got it from the son of the gent it was issued to but I've been around long enough to know that "he said" guarantees nothing.... Thanks Biff