HELP!

EOC Bob · 02-28-2001, 06:28 PM

In an attempt to cure my "hold open" problem on my 1921 DWM, I replaced the hold open latch spring. I noticed on reassembly that the front of the spring did not lay flat like the original but was tipped up a few degrees, the latch itself properly seated with the half curve seated under the pin. I had to tip up the end of the hold open latch to get the slide over the spring, and when I pulled the toggle back, it locked and will not return to battery even without the mag in place. Any ideas on a fix, or have I just committed the only Luger reassembly sin? Thanks Bob

EOC Bob · 02-28-2001, 08:19 PM

There is the possibility that I got the coupling link on the wrong side of the recoil spring lever while I was preoccupied with getting the barrel/receiver back on over the hold open latch. Way I see it I have two options, (1) push the barrel/receiver back and tap out the rear toggle pin and/or (2) drift out the recoil lever pin and see what happens?

Ted · 02-28-2001, 08:31 PM

That was my thinking, why not take the grip off and see what is going on first, take a breath and take your time! Dont get in a rush and dont FREAK OUT! AH.........that is better!

John D. · 02-28-2001, 08:39 PM

OK - I'm trying to replicate your problem back here.. I don't think you can get the rec. back far enough to get out the axle pin - if you try to drive it out - you'll really mar the rear left lug and the pin lip.. Removing the grip is not gonna accomplish anything (can't reach anything - but a good thought, Ted..!!)

The only way I can see to do it is take a small jewlers screwdriver - heat the tip and put a 90 degree bend in it. Working UNDER the right side frame rail on the INSIDE - slowly work it between the top of the holdopen and the underside of the rail... (You can see the cutout for the release on the right side you want to work on).. While doing this - pull the toggle back to try to release the pressure on the hold-open....

Give that a try - and I'll keep playing back here...!!!

John D. · 02-28-2001, 08:44 PM

OK - the trick is TO PULL BACK THE TOGGLE AS FAR AS YOU CAN while depressing the hold-open!!! Push the hold-open down - and keep it down with the screwdriver - and release the toggle SLOWLY while its depressed..!!!

EOC Bob · 02-28-2001, 09:25 PM

Boy what a relief, I couldn't push down from the top and get the hold open to drop, so I used a 90 degree dental tool and pulled it down from inside the frame (grips off)while pulling back on the toggle. Careful inspection of the hold open spring revealed the replacement to be about 1/16" shorter, slightly narrower and not arched like the original, so much for after market parts. Replaced the spring with the original and everything is fine, except I'm back to square one with it's problems. Thanks guys, it's great to have such support and everybody trying to help. I have suddenly lost my headache. Bob

Ted · 02-28-2001, 09:59 PM

i push the hold open up and down from inside the breech all i sugguested was to take the grip so you could see what was going on! in these frustrating cases i just sugguest patience and use your brain dont let th toggle close on your finger

John D. · 02-28-2001, 10:30 PM

makes this Forum pretty special.. Here is EOC Bob with a problem - and we are all "noodling" over a fix - you had the "rational" approach, Rick had the "experienced" approach and I was replicating the problem to figure out any approch at all

'Course - Bob never mentioned he had a dental tool when he was describing the problem ..!!!

About the toggle "snapping closed" on a finger - BTDT - I spewed forth words (and blood) that would have made a sailor blush.. It's the kind of thing you only do once in your life

Hugh · 03-01-2001, 12:56 AM

Marvin · 03-01-2001, 07:45 AM

Speaking of hold-open springs, I needed one for one of my Lugers and I bought one from Gun Parts. It fit right, looked right, but the darn thing had almost no "spring" to it. You could bend it and it would hold the bent shape and nopt spring back. I finally got it to work, but it is no good. I hope the ones they have now are better.

Marvin

EOC Bob · 03-01-2001, 09:04 AM

Hi Hugh, Original problem was (and still is) the toggle would return to battery when the last round was fired. I had purchased from SARCO a Luger spring kit that had a replacement hold down spring in it. While replacing the original I did not notice that the replacement was slightly different, mainly it was shorter and did not have an "arch" in it. Thinking this was normal, and that the original had changed with age, I just slipped the barrel/receiver assy back on the slide, and when I tried to charge and release the toggle, it wouldn't release to the fire position. Panic mode set in thinking I had perhaps assembled it wrong. Then, thinking it out, while my wife was holding the Luger, I tried using a plastic probe to push down the hold open lever while pulling back on the toggle, wouldn't budge, so while my wife was yelling "you better not get your finger caught in there" (right John?) I grabbed it from underneath with a dental tool, pulled back on the toggle and it released. Needless to say I took it apart and trashed that spring, replacing it with the original. While I was doing this, John and others had it all figured out, and I thank them for their concern and help. But now I'm back to a Luger that won't hold open, jams, and occasionally won't load a round. Thankfully I have a fully functional S/42 so Luger withdrawal won't be a problem until I fix this DWM. Didn't mean to write a book. Best regards. Bob

Ted · 03-01-2001, 09:09 AM

Have you tried Tom Heller, he may have a good spring of perhaps the entire hold open orginal parts. I noticed your message says "panic sinks in" then I notice you said "thinking it out" ALWAYS take a breather and use tha gray matter between your ears, panic is your worst enemy. Take a few minutes, drink some coffee and take a breath it almost always helps. I had a toggle pin to get out last night and persistance and calm sure helped make it happen, an that new pin punch set I got didnt hurt either. Ted

Hugh · 03-01-2001, 01:23 PM

Bob, It sounds to me like you have a magazine problem, not a hold open problem. If the toggle doesn't stay open after the last round, then the holdopen spring is working correctly and holding the holdopen down as it is supposed to. The mag follower button is supposed to push the holdopen up against the pressure of it's spring to catch the toggle and hold it open. From your description of misfeeding and not staying open after the last shot, I would suspect a weak mag spring. Try a magazine the works correctly in your other Luger, hopwever if the spring in the malfunctioning gun is stronger than the other gun, this may not prove anything! You can get replacement mag springs from Wolff. This usually solves a lot of Luger malfunctioning problems! I have noticed with some of the aftermarket holdopen springs that they will push the holdopen back as well as down and it will rub against the frame and not work up and down smoothly.

EOC Bob · 03-01-2001, 04:44 PM

Patience isn't one of my virtues Ted, although with advancing age, I'm getting better. No way was I going to bed with a jammed up Luger in the shop. March photo is fantastic, I keep thinking they can't get any better, but they usually do.

Ted · 03-01-2001, 04:47 PM

Hey Bob, I HEAR YOU! I sometimes panic beyound belief, but Natalie keeps telling me to calm down! I usually do and get the job done and make things happen much better when I relax. You sure are welcome, I was indeed fortunate at finding that rig. ACtually the holster was seen first and I had already made my mind up to buy something else. Ralph said it belonged to a rig and I said, well if the holster is that good the Luger must be great too!!! It was and I now am sure happy I bought it! I hope to find another such find Saturday! Ted

EOC Bob · 03-01-2001, 04:55 PM

That makes sense Hugh, I will try the mag from my S/42 next time at the range. Funny, this DWM always was quite reliable but as I posted last week, the last time I shot it everything went wrong, would not pick up a round, jams, would not arm the firing pin, and would not hold open. All in the course of about 20 rounds. Got embarressed and swapped it for my CZ52 which functioned perfectly. I have two replacement mainsprings, one a little longer than the other, but with this holdopen episode, I fear to try a replacement, especially the shorter one that came in the SARCO kit.

EOC Bob · 03-01-2001, 08:52 PM

Next time at the range I'm swapping mags, will let you know what happens. Thanks for your help. Bob

John Sabato · 03-02-2001, 10:17 AM

on an empty mag? If it works when doing this, the only reason I can think of for not working while shooting is that the mainspring doesn't allow the slide to go back far enough for the ammo that you are shooting, OR the ammo is too underpowered for the mainspring that is installed.

-John

EOC Bob · 03-02-2001, 02:45 PM

will check out the mag first.

Michael E Halbrook · 03-03-2001, 03:52 AM

I've seen the bottom of the breachblock and mating

face of the holdopen be peened enough that the holdopen

slips off under recoil. With this problem the toggle will

often lockback properly when done by hand.

I also have a replacement holdopen where the magazine button

slips past the extension on the holdopen due to tolerance

problems.

02-28-2001, 06:28 PM	#1
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	HELP! In an attempt to cure my "hold open" problem on my 1921 DWM, I replaced the hold open latch spring. I noticed on reassembly that the front of the spring did not lay flat like the original but was tipped up a few degrees, the latch itself properly seated with the half curve seated under the pin. I had to tip up the end of the hold open latch to get the slide over the spring, and when I pulled the toggle back, it locked and will not return to battery even without the mag in place. Any ideas on a fix, or have I just committed the only Luger reassembly sin? Thanks Bob

02-28-2001, 08:19 PM	#2
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: HELP! There is the possibility that I got the coupling link on the wrong side of the recoil spring lever while I was preoccupied with getting the barrel/receiver back on over the hold open latch. Way I see it I have two options, (1) push the barrel/receiver back and tap out the rear toggle pin and/or (2) drift out the recoil lever pin and see what happens?

02-28-2001, 08:31 PM	#3
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: HELP! That was my thinking, why not take the grip off and see what is going on first, take a breath and take your time! Dont get in a rush and dont FREAK OUT! AH.........that is better!

02-28-2001, 08:39 PM	#4
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	WOW..!! A real chinese puzzle... OK - I'm trying to replicate your problem back here.. I don't think you can get the rec. back far enough to get out the axle pin - if you try to drive it out - you'll really mar the rear left lug and the pin lip.. Removing the grip is not gonna accomplish anything (can't reach anything - but a good thought, Ted..!!) The only way I can see to do it is take a small jewlers screwdriver - heat the tip and put a 90 degree bend in it. Working UNDER the right side frame rail on the INSIDE - slowly work it between the top of the holdopen and the underside of the rail... (You can see the cutout for the release on the right side you want to work on).. While doing this - pull the toggle back to try to release the pressure on the hold-open.... Give that a try - and I'll keep playing back here...!!!

02-28-2001, 08:44 PM	#5
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	IT WORKS..!! OK - the trick is TO PULL BACK THE TOGGLE AS FAR AS YOU CAN while depressing the hold-open!!! Push the hold-open down - and keep it down with the screwdriver - and release the toggle SLOWLY while its depressed..!!!

02-28-2001, 09:25 PM	#6
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	GOT IT Boy what a relief, I couldn't push down from the top and get the hold open to drop, so I used a 90 degree dental tool and pulled it down from inside the frame (grips off)while pulling back on the toggle. Careful inspection of the hold open spring revealed the replacement to be about 1/16" shorter, slightly narrower and not arched like the original, so much for after market parts. Replaced the spring with the original and everything is fine, except I'm back to square one with it's problems. Thanks guys, it's great to have such support and everybody trying to help. I have suddenly lost my headache. Bob

02-28-2001, 09:59 PM	#7
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: WOW..!! A real chinese puzzle... i push the hold open up and down from inside the breech all i sugguested was to take the grip so you could see what was going on! in these frustrating cases i just sugguest patience and use your brain dont let th toggle close on your finger

02-28-2001, 10:30 PM	#8
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	It's what.. makes this Forum pretty special.. Here is EOC Bob with a problem - and we are all "noodling" over a fix - you had the "rational" approach, Rick had the "experienced" approach and I was replicating the problem to figure out any approch at all 'Course - Bob never mentioned he had a dental tool when he was describing the problem ..!!! About the toggle "snapping closed" on a finger - BTDT - I spewed forth words (and blood) that would have made a sailor blush.. It's the kind of thing you only do once in your life

03-01-2001, 12:56 AM	#9
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Bob, what was the original problem? (EOM)

03-01-2001, 07:45 AM	#10
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: GOT IT Speaking of hold-open springs, I needed one for one of my Lugers and I bought one from Gun Parts. It fit right, looked right, but the darn thing had almost no "spring" to it. You could bend it and it would hold the bent shape and nopt spring back. I finally got it to work, but it is no good. I hope the ones they have now are better. Marvin

03-01-2001, 09:04 AM	#11
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Bob, what was the original problem? Hi Hugh, Original problem was (and still is) the toggle would return to battery when the last round was fired. I had purchased from SARCO a Luger spring kit that had a replacement hold down spring in it. While replacing the original I did not notice that the replacement was slightly different, mainly it was shorter and did not have an "arch" in it. Thinking this was normal, and that the original had changed with age, I just slipped the barrel/receiver assy back on the slide, and when I tried to charge and release the toggle, it wouldn't release to the fire position. Panic mode set in thinking I had perhaps assembled it wrong. Then, thinking it out, while my wife was holding the Luger, I tried using a plastic probe to push down the hold open lever while pulling back on the toggle, wouldn't budge, so while my wife was yelling "you better not get your finger caught in there" (right John?) I grabbed it from underneath with a dental tool, pulled back on the toggle and it released. Needless to say I took it apart and trashed that spring, replacing it with the original. While I was doing this, John and others had it all figured out, and I thank them for their concern and help. But now I'm back to a Luger that won't hold open, jams, and occasionally won't load a round. Thankfully I have a fully functional S/42 so Luger withdrawal won't be a problem until I fix this DWM. Didn't mean to write a book. Best regards. Bob

03-01-2001, 09:09 AM	#12
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Bob, what was the original problem? Have you tried Tom Heller, he may have a good spring of perhaps the entire hold open orginal parts. I noticed your message says "panic sinks in" then I notice you said "thinking it out" ALWAYS take a breather and use tha gray matter between your ears, panic is your worst enemy. Take a few minutes, drink some coffee and take a breath it almost always helps. I had a toggle pin to get out last night and persistance and calm sure helped make it happen, an that new pin punch set I got didnt hurt either. Ted

03-01-2001, 01:23 PM	#13
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Holdopen problems Bob, It sounds to me like you have a magazine problem, not a hold open problem. If the toggle doesn't stay open after the last round, then the holdopen spring is working correctly and holding the holdopen down as it is supposed to. The mag follower button is supposed to push the holdopen up against the pressure of it's spring to catch the toggle and hold it open. From your description of misfeeding and not staying open after the last shot, I would suspect a weak mag spring. Try a magazine the works correctly in your other Luger, hopwever if the spring in the malfunctioning gun is stronger than the other gun, this may not prove anything! You can get replacement mag springs from Wolff. This usually solves a lot of Luger malfunctioning problems! I have noticed with some of the aftermarket holdopen springs that they will push the holdopen back as well as down and it will rub against the frame and not work up and down smoothly.

03-01-2001, 04:44 PM	#14
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Ted Patience isn't one of my virtues Ted, although with advancing age, I'm getting better. No way was I going to bed with a jammed up Luger in the shop. March photo is fantastic, I keep thinking they can't get any better, but they usually do.

03-01-2001, 04:47 PM	#15
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Hi Ted Hey Bob, I HEAR YOU! I sometimes panic beyound belief, but Natalie keeps telling me to calm down! I usually do and get the job done and make things happen much better when I relax. You sure are welcome, I was indeed fortunate at finding that rig. ACtually the holster was seen first and I had already made my mind up to buy something else. Ralph said it belonged to a rig and I said, well if the holster is that good the Luger must be great too!!! It was and I now am sure happy I bought it! I hope to find another such find Saturday! Ted

03-01-2001, 04:55 PM	#16
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Holdopen problems That makes sense Hugh, I will try the mag from my S/42 next time at the range. Funny, this DWM always was quite reliable but as I posted last week, the last time I shot it everything went wrong, would not pick up a round, jams, would not arm the firing pin, and would not hold open. All in the course of about 20 rounds. Got embarressed and swapped it for my CZ52 which functioned perfectly. I have two replacement mainsprings, one a little longer than the other, but with this holdopen episode, I fear to try a replacement, especially the shorter one that came in the SARCO kit.

03-01-2001, 08:52 PM	#17
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Rick Next time at the range I'm swapping mags, will let you know what happens. Thanks for your help. Bob

03-02-2001, 10:17 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Bob, Does the holdopen work when you pull back the toggles on an empty mag? If it works when doing this, the only reason I can think of for not working while shooting is that the mainspring doesn't allow the slide to go back far enough for the ammo that you are shooting, OR the ammo is too underpowered for the mainspring that is installed. -John

03-02-2001, 02:45 PM	#19
EOC Bob User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm thinking the same thing John, but will check out the mag first.

03-03-2001, 03:52 AM	#20
Michael E Halbrook User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Nampa, ID Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Holdopen problems I've seen the bottom of the breachblock and mating face of the holdopen be peened enough that the holdopen slips off under recoil. With this problem the toggle will often lockback properly when done by hand. I also have a replacement holdopen where the magazine button slips past the extension on the holdopen due to tolerance problems.