ID Help please - pic Heavy

N8Gunnr · 02-07-2010, 06:48 PM

I bought this yesterday, an interesting piece but beyond me as to what it is exactly. Any help with ID'ing this would be much appreciated......
As I plan on selling it , how should I price it ? Thanks !
Here are my amatuer observations:
9mm , 6 " barrel , "Gesichert" at bottom position of safety

No Serial number anywhere on the gun's frame or barrel assembly. No Numbers on gun or gun components. None.

The only markings on Gun whatsoever are 2 each proof marks vertical (crown over N )

ERMA .22 sub caliber kit installed (Pre War kit ????)
ERMA 22 bolt assembly serial # 5512
ERMA 22 barrel/Chamber serial # 5503
.22 Magazine marked 5503 on alloy base
Mag appears to have a wooden follower.

1st 20 Pictures:

N8Gunnr · 02-07-2010, 06:50 PM

Edward Tinker · 02-07-2010, 10:32 PM

Interesting, it is a 1906 frame, with commericial markings that is missing the original toggle. Older frame that has a 6 inch barrel put onto it, but an approved crown N'd barrel, but not serialed.

The 1906 w/out the 22 adapater maybe $500 (yes I am pretty sure what the frame is)

The 22 adapter is probably another $300-$400

Ed

[email protected]

N8Gunnr · 02-07-2010, 11:28 PM

Thanks , Ed.
Please tell me if I am seeing this correctly.....

(or what is this ?)

A 1906 (what.....?) Is it a 1906 1st issue Naval missing its 9mm bolt (toggle?) and a 6" pre WWII ERMA .22 sub caliber conversion ?

or am I seeing 3 components ....
1.1906 1st issue Naval Frame (?)- it has no markings
2.Commercial Proofed 6" Naval barrel (?)
3.Pre WWII (?) ERMA .22 conversion

And whats with No Serial numbers on the Guns frame and no numbers on its parts?

Thanks

MFC · 02-08-2010, 02:01 AM

I also responded on the other forum.
I think it's a 06 Navy frame 1st issue unaltered (an 06 commercial wouldn't have a stock lug), and Navy 6" barrel w/ high front sight base . Maybe a rework or put together from military parts. C/N commercial proofs but no numbers??? Maybe a training pistol?

Mauser George · 02-08-2010, 10:17 AM

MFC:

I am pretty sure a 1906 commerical, 1st issue unaltered does have a stock lug.

Regards,

George

PS: Mike, your description above sounds very famialer to one posted on Gunboards!

MFC · 02-08-2010, 10:56 AM

George,
The "common" 06 commercial designation would not have a stock lug. I should have been more specific.

Ron Wood · 02-08-2010, 11:02 AM

I also responded on the other forum as follows:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The lazy Crown/N predates 1920. The configuration of the gun and the location of the GESICHERT marking would indicate that this is a rather scarce 1906 Navy Commercial. I have no explanation for the lack of serial numbers, as it appears never to have been numbered. I see no evidence of metal removal. There is not even a number on the receiver recoil lug or a witness mark. Very odd.

The ejector is broken, which isn't surprising. It should be removed before installing this early type .22 conversion unit. It also appears that the grip safety spring is broken or missing, or that the grip safety is incorrectly installed and didn't engage the spring.

Mauser George · 02-08-2010, 11:45 AM

MFC:

This 1906 Navy has the old style long frame.

As per my reference books, not all 1906 Commercial Lugers were made without stock lug.

My guess is that the ERMA 22 conversion toggle is post war. Would be interesting to see the other side of the magazine to see if it holds 5 or 10 rounds.

Regards,

George

N8Gunnr · 02-08-2010, 12:46 PM

Thanks All !
Looking at the only Luger Book that I have found in my pile of old gun books, (its an OLD one !)
"Luger Variations volume 1" by Harry E. Jones Copyright 1959
Published by the author. Autographed by the author to a John B.Beecroft 3/17/60

The picture in the book shows the 2 C/N proofs on the barrel/reciever.

Anyhow, on Page 95 shows 1906 Naval Commercial
I shall try and type out the entire comments.....

"Comments: Also referred to as the 1904/06 Naval Commercial. I do not believe these Lugers were produced in 7.65mm; do not confuse with the 1920 Naval Commercial, i.e., 1906,1908, and 1914 Military Navals that have the Naval proofing(5 & 6) ground off and are re-proofed with the 1920 Commercial proofing(21), some of these 1908 and 1914 Navals will have a grip safety added and the date is ground off the 1914's. ALL 1906 Naval Commercials have a 5 digit serial; the GESICHERT marking is at the bottom of the safety well. The concentric rings are on the magazine bottom peice without proofing and serial.A much sought after variation, usually only found in advanced collections.

Here are some more pictures of the magazine .The aluminum bottom is serialized to the barrel of the conversion unit.

Much Thanks to all for the help and input.....
Now Where to find correct bolt toggle Magazine for this !!!!!!

zocalo · 02-08-2010, 02:44 PM

is this luger for sale ?? zocalo

Lugerdoc · 02-08-2010, 09:54 PM

Nat, I agree that your photos show a 1st issue Navy frame and barrelled receiver with a postwar Erma commerical conversion unit whose mag is missing the original follower & button. Interesting as parts, but probably worth restoring to it's original military configuration. If you decide not to do it, sell it to me and I will. Tom

02-07-2010, 06:48 PM	#1
N8Gunnr User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ID Help please - pic Heavy I bought this yesterday, an interesting piece but beyond me as to what it is exactly. Any help with ID'ing this would be much appreciated...... As I plan on selling it , how should I price it ? Thanks ! Here are my amatuer observations: 9mm , 6 " barrel , "Gesichert" at bottom position of safety No Serial number anywhere on the gun's frame or barrel assembly. No Numbers on gun or gun components. None. The only markings on Gun whatsoever are 2 each proof marks vertical (crown over N ) ERMA .22 sub caliber kit installed (Pre War kit ????) ERMA 22 bolt assembly serial # 5512 ERMA 22 barrel/Chamber serial # 5503 .22 Magazine marked 5503 on alloy base Mag appears to have a wooden follower. 1st 20 Pictures: __________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -- Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX) "Weasel words from mollycoddles will never do when the day demands prophetic clarity from greathearts. Manly men must emerge for this hour of trial." --Theodore Roosevelt -President USA

02-07-2010, 06:50 PM	#2
N8Gunnr User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	__________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -- Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX) "Weasel words from mollycoddles will never do when the day demands prophetic clarity from greathearts. Manly men must emerge for this hour of trial." --Theodore Roosevelt -President USA

02-07-2010, 10:32 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Interesting, it is a 1906 frame, with commericial markings that is missing the original toggle. Older frame that has a 6 inch barrel put onto it, but an approved crown N'd barrel, but not serialed. The 1906 w/out the 22 adapater maybe $500 (yes I am pretty sure what the frame is) The 22 adapter is probably another $300-$400 Ed [email protected] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-07-2010, 11:28 PM	#4
N8Gunnr User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks , Ed. Please tell me if I am seeing this correctly..... (or what is this ?) A 1906 (what.....?) Is it a 1906 1st issue Naval missing its 9mm bolt (toggle?) and a 6" pre WWII ERMA .22 sub caliber conversion ? or am I seeing 3 components .... 1.1906 1st issue Naval Frame (?)- it has no markings 2.Commercial Proofed 6" Naval barrel (?) 3.Pre WWII (?) ERMA .22 conversion And whats with No Serial numbers on the Guns frame and no numbers on its parts? Thanks __________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -- Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX) "Weasel words from mollycoddles will never do when the day demands prophetic clarity from greathearts. Manly men must emerge for this hour of trial." --Theodore Roosevelt -President USA

02-08-2010, 02:01 AM	#5
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	I also responded on the other forum. I think it's a 06 Navy frame 1st issue unaltered (an 06 commercial wouldn't have a stock lug), and Navy 6" barrel w/ high front sight base . Maybe a rework or put together from military parts. C/N commercial proofs but no numbers??? Maybe a training pistol? __________________ Mike C. Last edited by MFC; 02-08-2010 at 03:09 AM.

02-08-2010, 10:17 AM	#6
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	MFC: I am pretty sure a 1906 commerical, 1st issue unaltered does have a stock lug. Regards, George PS: Mike, your description above sounds very famialer to one posted on Gunboards!

02-08-2010, 10:56 AM	#7
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	George, The "common" 06 commercial designation would not have a stock lug. I should have been more specific. __________________ Mike C.

02-08-2010, 11:02 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I also responded on the other forum as follows: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The lazy Crown/N predates 1920. The configuration of the gun and the location of the GESICHERT marking would indicate that this is a rather scarce 1906 Navy Commercial. I have no explanation for the lack of serial numbers, as it appears never to have been numbered. I see no evidence of metal removal. There is not even a number on the receiver recoil lug or a witness mark. Very odd. The ejector is broken, which isn't surprising. It should be removed before installing this early type .22 conversion unit. It also appears that the grip safety spring is broken or missing, or that the grip safety is incorrectly installed and didn't engage the spring. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-08-2010, 11:45 AM	#9
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	MFC: This 1906 Navy has the old style long frame. As per my reference books, not all 1906 Commercial Lugers were made without stock lug. My guess is that the ERMA 22 conversion toggle is post war. Would be interesting to see the other side of the magazine to see if it holds 5 or 10 rounds. Regards, George

02-08-2010, 12:46 PM	#10
N8Gunnr User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks All ! Looking at the only Luger Book that I have found in my pile of old gun books, (its an OLD one !) "Luger Variations volume 1" by Harry E. Jones Copyright 1959 Published by the author. Autographed by the author to a John B.Beecroft 3/17/60 The picture in the book shows the 2 C/N proofs on the barrel/reciever. Anyhow, on Page 95 shows 1906 Naval Commercial I shall try and type out the entire comments..... "Comments: Also referred to as the 1904/06 Naval Commercial. I do not believe these Lugers were produced in 7.65mm; do not confuse with the 1920 Naval Commercial, i.e., 1906,1908, and 1914 Military Navals that have the Naval proofing(5 & 6) ground off and are re-proofed with the 1920 Commercial proofing(21), some of these 1908 and 1914 Navals will have a grip safety added and the date is ground off the 1914's. ALL 1906 Naval Commercials have a 5 digit serial; the GESICHERT marking is at the bottom of the safety well. The concentric rings are on the magazine bottom peice without proofing and serial.A much sought after variation, usually only found in advanced collections. Here are some more pictures of the magazine .The aluminum bottom is serialized to the barrel of the conversion unit. Much Thanks to all for the help and input..... Now Where to find correct bolt toggle Magazine for this !!!!!! __________________ "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." -- Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX) "Weasel words from mollycoddles will never do when the day demands prophetic clarity from greathearts. Manly men must emerge for this hour of trial." --Theodore Roosevelt -President USA

02-08-2010, 02:44 PM	#11
zocalo New User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	is this luger for sale ?? zocalo

02-08-2010, 09:54 PM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Nat, I agree that your photos show a 1st issue Navy frame and barrelled receiver with a postwar Erma commerical conversion unit whose mag is missing the original follower & button. Interesting as parts, but probably worth restoring to it's original military configuration. If you decide not to do it, sell it to me and I will. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]